VEDANTA BOSS CLAIMS $500 MILLION PROFIT PER YEAR AT KCM!
Video of Anil Agarwal speaking in March 2014 reveals how he bought KCM for just $25 million.
Agarwal claims KCM is giving him $500 million every year in profit, plus an extra $1 billion.
Meanwhile Vedanta have continued to claim that they are making a loss, or a minimal profit at KCM.
A video(1), released by activists from Foil Vedanta(2) yesterday , shows Vedanta boss, and 69% owner, Anil Agarwal, telling a large audience how he bought Konkola Copper Mines for just $25 million, rather than the $400 million asking price, and receiving loud cheers when he states that the company brings in $500 million in profit each year.
Foil Vedanta had previously released figures from Vedanta’s annual reports showing that the company made $362 million in 2013(3), but Vedanta CEO Tom Albanese(4) had disputed this during his visits to Zambia in February, repeating the previous claim that KCM was making a very low profit or a loss due to high operational costs and taxes.(5)
In the video, Agarwal, speaking to the Jain International Trade Organisation(6) in Bangalore, India, March 22 – 23 this year, states about KCM:
“Its been 9 years [since we’ve owned the company], and since then every year it is giving us a minimum of 500 million dollar, plus 1 billion dollar, every year it has been continuously giving back.”
Anil Agarwal also explains in detail how he came to buy ‘the largest copper mine in Africa’ at Konkola, describing how he took a chance by offering only $25 million rather than the $400 million asking price.
He describes his surprise at receiving a VIP welcome in the Zambian parliament, and ridicules the then Zambian President Levy Mwanawasa for claiming that Vedanta would improve the lives of Zambians, saying:
“He told the entire parliament that what great people we are, and our empire, and that they will make our lives gorgeous. And they will make schools, make hospitals and blah blah …”
A few weeks ago a protest at the Zambian High Commission in London next called for Vedanta and the Zambian government to release KCM’s annual reports, containing the official figures on profits and tax payment, which are currently kept secret.
They also suggested that Vedanta should be forced to pay the fine of $2 million served by Zambian courts in 2011 as compensation to 2000 claimants poisoned by major pollution of the river Kafue in 2006, and stop ongoing spills affecting Chingola residents. (7)
In addition they joined the calls of KCM employees and former employees in Zambia, who are demanding that retrenched workers are properly compensated for taking redundancy, and existing contract labourers are unionised.(8)
Meanwhile Vedanta’s Lisheen mine in Ireland, which they bought from Anglo American in 2011, is facing trouble, as a High Court judgement has ruled that three senior managers should be paid 6 months sick pay after leaving the company due to ‘bullying, harassment and intimidation since Vedanta took control’. Local councillors, as well as the aggrieved managers, are also questioning Vedanta’s decision not to wind the mine down by 2015, as they had originally planned.(9)
We own 20% but get ZERO. Who sits on this board? I’m sure he has an account in switzerland. We have always said that all the current mines can change our lives for the best. Polititians are *****s. That mine in the lower zambezi national park should never operate at all costs. CORRUPTION.
This video has spoiled my day.Now i understand why Nawakwi has been saying that our mines were sold for a song.We are a naive and gullible nation.I`m so pissed right now.
We all accept that our mines where sold cheap but let us also understand the factors around the Zambian mines and general economy at the time. Our mines where in a deplorable state and needing huge sums in investiment at the time. If an interested buyer is able to put up a case, in terms of the money needed to upgrade a mine and its profits, the sellers should listen to “sensible” offers. If the value of the mine was $400m and (I think Angro-American mining refused to buy KCM just before VEDANTA came up) the investiment needed in $375m why cant one accept $25m, job creation, social development and all that for its people? The Problem is that the Indians, like all investors, lie with empty promises and this one is boasting about it. We should be “demanding” what they promised us…
There is nothing wrong with this video
What is wr0ong with what he said, did you want him to lie?
Thanks
Can we re-introduce windfall tax now. i mean you have heard for yourself!
The video has made me sick to the stomach!!
I feel grossly violated personally
Levy sold the mines to these people for a song. it was a mistake and despite being duped and our resources stolen since then, we now have a lucky break for us to get what belongs to us as a country.
Its incumbent upon the current govt to move swiftly and decisively to collect retroactively our fair share of taxes from our resources and put measures in place to stop such haemorrhage, failure to which we can as well consider selling the whole country.
As Zambians this is the time to show our patriotism
Gen, if you think your PF will do anything about this, you’re a dreamer and am hoping their non-action will make you have a true view about how diabolical and criminal this government is. They probably already know about these figures and instead of taking action, they asked to be cut in. Thats just how it goes.
This is all why I agree with Julius Malema. Take back our wealth and give it to the toiling masses
Reading/watching this video has ruined my evenning! If the President and his crew care for our beloved country, he will not rest till this mess is cleaned… what a shame, naumfwa ukulila pano!
Another wake up call.
I am disgusted and angry at our Leaders. This is stupid. KCM should be repossessed, he cannot get away with this. Our leaders are so stupid that they smile at such rubbish. What has the president done? An Indian making jokes on Zambians?? We should get back the mine, we can run it ourselves.
IT’S A SHAME. THAT’S ALL I CAN SAY. OUR MINES FEEDING THE INDIANS IN INDIA AND LEAVING THE OWNERS WITH NO FOOD, NO HOSPITALS, NO SCHOOLS, NO ROADS, NO COLLEGES/UNIVERSITIES, AND JUST NO NOTHING. ATI LEVY MWANAWASA- THE CHAP WAS ONE OF THE DULLEST BIG THIEF.
i hope you are not running insane by trying to compare the goof in state house today to the learned lawyer late Mwanawasa.
Tell us even one class mate Sata had even in grade three. Zero! –
There is no way you can expect Sata to perform when the man is illiterate!
Do not underrate education by thinking that the man who was a “kanyangu” in colonial days can change anything today. Levy was great compare to your goof!
Typical of PF minions! Do not blame other when you are in government today and it is a challenge for you to change the current scenario regardless of who created the mess. Take responsibility.
Besides copper, you might as well add emeralds, retail, light and heavy industry, hunting blocks, Rhinos and elephants, land- farms and prestigious neighborhoods, govt contracts, food outlets, banks, oil if you find it, zambian girls, your body parts, unza land. The kaffir without a white man or an indian to guide him, can not even manage to dig a hole! Respect is not just a word, it is something earned! A man who can not feed his family is not respected.
Levy is the best President Zambia has ever had! Really?
This “Chimbwi” is about to change this perception for ever?
As a matter of facts iwe chimbi @Mpundu Trust truly you have a short memory. By the way, who messed up KCM??? Was not Chimbwi, Levy Mwanawasa SC??? MHSRIP. Levy’s govt sold this mine to blurry Indians for a song. It is Levy who brought these Vedanta Indians. You have forgotten, makaka iwee! Kabili uli nkulungwe, walyo umwaka umo, mambala iwe!
Thats what happens when a country has Monkey for a president…. all he knows is chachacha politics and to sleep
I don’t like sata but that statement is racist my friend!
Well i don’t see anything racist ion describing exactly what i think of him. I can not think of any African country which has a president with a brain of a monkey
Even Ba mwenye think Zambians are Monkeys…
It is not Sata that sold the mines iwe makaka
Simply because you think and behave like a monkey, does not make others monkeys too.
Fake engineer, what type of home did you grow up in?Who is your father and mother? I hope your children will not take after you. Ifimasele is your present occupation. Insults will never win you elections.
This is how they call @The Engineer Austrialia in diaspora. So out of the abundance of his heart, the mouth speaks.
Your useless Monkey president rushed to reverse the sell of Finance bank which belong to a fellow monkey friend. He was in MMD when these Indians bought this mine… why is he so quiet to sort it out?
Ba Engineer,
Awe mwachilamo…. am begining to think you are either high when blogging or your mid life crisis is taking it’s toll. Are you sure you are not lacking some chemicals needed to balance your hormones? Seek help sir before it’s too late, rational grown up men don’t throw stones, hope you are ok where ever you are stay blessed!
Extremely sad reading!! …
Its Shameful!!! very very sad indeed
Why are we surprised by this…you honestly think your foreign investors are here to develop our country? You give the concession after concession and they laugh in our faces.
*…them…
@ Jay jay,
Am so much with you on this count! I only hope these greedy politicians can face criminal charges, for this equals to selling the land, sabbotage and above all plunder! This isn’t naivity but a criminal act! My my my…… that laugh, the geering and grin on his face keeps tearing me to shreds, but am angrrrrrrrry!!!!!!!
Dear friends we have to be brave. This here is the situation, everyone for themselves. One Zambia One Nation. I will vote for Sata if he can kick these guys out.
I am not shocked at this. Indians are building India, Nigerians are building Nigeria.
President Sata, since you are now the one at the helm, let us review these mining agreements before 2016. It will be your credit. We are very rich, yet very poor!
Who sold KCM for $25m?
Levy Mwanawasa and his govt sold KCM for $25m. Ask Brian Chituwo and Prof. Lungwangwa. They are still alive. And HH was the main privatization financial advisor and consultant for the same transaction.
@mwiiko, Lungwangwa became an MP for Nalikwanda in 2006. ZCCM was privatized in 2004. Grant Thornton was only involved in the liquidation of Binani owned Roan mine in 2003. Grant Thornton was never involved in the privatization of KCM. Why don’t you ask Mahtani, Maureen and Magande? These know a lot about KCM.
Remember that ZANACO was also sold for $8m by Mwanawasa
Sorry KCM and not ZCCM was privatized in 2004.
Mangande” Super Minister” has some explaining to do
ALL I CAN SAY IS THAT WE ZAMBIANS ARE VERY DOCILE. WE ARE VERY SELFISH. WE REALLY DONT CARE ABOUT EACH OTHER. HENCE THE CONSEQUENCES. IAM VERY SAD INDEED. THE NATIONALIST STANCE OF THE ORIGINAL KK CABINET IS NO LONGER EXISTING AMONGST US ZAMBIANS. THE GOVERNMENT IS BUSY BORROWING A LOT OF MONEY AND YET THIS KCM IS BUSY BETRAYING US.
@ The Engineer(Australia)
Our monkey President was in opposition when Levy and Chiluba gave away our mines. When our monkey condemned the same so-called investor over the impending mass redundancies of miners, your HH and the pastor came on air to tell us about how the President was scaring away investors.
Sata was Secretary General of MMD when mining divisions of ZCCM were privatized. Luanshya was sold to Binani in 1997. Mufulira and Nkana were sold to Glencor in 1998. Avil bought Chibuluma in 1998. Anglo American got KCM in 2000 which it abandoned in 2002 . It was later sold to Vedanta in November 2004 by Levy on the advice of Mahtani. The person who led the privatisation of the mines was Francis Kaunda. He was the Chairman of the Special Team On the Privatization of ZCCM. His Deputy was Luke Mwananshiku. Abena Luapula!
You guys seem to be all getting out of the main issue here.
The main issue is about this most wicked indian mocking us about our GOD given wealthy.
This man , and everyone supporting him do not have a concious at all, they think stealing from africans is the best, NO my friends, stealing from africans is the most cheapest and athe most backward. its like stealing from those child & adult labourers in bombay and calcutta, who has nothing but what is only for that day! unless you are so naive, indians boasting about crooking zambians are the most unlearned, BECAUSE we are better than the over 300million people wallowing in poverty, without a future. ASK yourselves, why indians are flocking to zambia, its not because we are idle, NO! ITS because we are the most civilized and urbanized!
Sleeping government without any measures to cross check what the Indians are declaring as profit to avoid paying tax. The president continues to sup with these clowns! He is doing the same with the Chinese. Look at the “about turn” on them after he came to power after promising his campaign promises to kick them out.
This government should take a leaf from Botswana and Namibia on policies to protect our natural resources.
Kick these Coolie’s behinds,they have not added any value to KCM.They dont pay zambians suppliers on time,always arguing with employees when it comes to perks. Those type of Coolies are not even respected in India!
My heart sinks and groans for Zambia!! Look at the way the man is now mocking us? He has now made the country and its govt look like *****s to the whole world!! Was it corruption or sheer ineptitude of our people? Where are our Economists? accountants? Lawyers?
People are building massive houses in Zambia yet they cannot get their head round to think of investing in companies like buying shares in KCM!! Come on Zedians naba Mwenye baletulila amasuku pamutwele!!
” People are building massive houses in Zambia yet they cannot get their head round to think of investing in companies like buying shares in KCM!! ”
Do you really think that a company run by Anil Agarwal is a good investment?
It is a company run by a liar, a thief (‘plus $1 billion’) and a tax cheat.
You had better believe he is cheating on his shareholders too. I would guess that’s why ZCCM-IH isn’t receiving any dividend payments on their shares.
The Australia engineer is a victim of education in a f.o.ol it does more damage than good more expecially if its new to you the thinking is you are the only one educated.why not just comment insults does not make anyone happy you are bitter because you cant save where you are come back in Zambia if you are a man join politics if you are a man rule and if you dont know there are a lot of Zambians in Australia working in almost all works of life and behave well imagine a f.oo.l like you in power you will be shi.ting on innocent villages becouse you think you are educated educated people like professor chwa did not advertise them selves but go to cbu you will see what the man is made of dont claim what you are not those are indications of not being educated maybe schooled
This is very upsetting
Very sad. At least windfall tax will make us realize something
IS THIS WANT WE CALL INDEPENDENCE WHERE FOREIGHNERS COME TO BLINDFORD US AND WE TREATY THEM LIKE KINGS WHILE THEY ARE JUST MIDDLE CLASS FROM THERE COUNTRY,WAT A SHAME TO OUR LEADERS AND THE COUNTRY AT LARGE.IF PEOPLE FROM BRITAIN CAN PROTEST ON OUR BEHALF WAT OF US PEOPLE WHO ARE FELLING THE SO CALLED HUNGER SAID BY TIS FOOL SAMYA.TWACULA PAFULA.CRY MY BELOVED COUNTRY.NEVER NEVER NEVER Z THI GOING TO HAPPEN TO IN COMING GENERATION.
The West has our leaders at gun point, these multi-national companies pay their taxes in their countries and use their bank’s offshore services. …this is why I always laugh when Fossil Chikwanda is signing on the dotted line.
We need a new breed of savvy leaders not dinosaurs we have in Africa.
We blindfold ourselves. The man said he came and was treated as VIP. He was not expecting that. He was shocked. From what he is saying, he was just coming to see and then, he was offered. The whole lot of a president moved from wherever he was sitting to sit next to Agarwal. He even lied that their delegation was in South Africa but our government rushed to sell the mine without serious considerations!
( Fossil Chikwanda), ( dinosaurs we have in Africa) really. you can do better than this. You telling that your father, mother and your grand parents are now fossils and dinosaurs now that that they are old. It simply means you are born from a fossil.
HEMCS is not the one who sold the KCM. it is the late Mwanawasa MHSRIEP and Magande. Now see what has happened, that investor is boasting at the huge profit he is making at the expense of our country. So please stop blaming Sata
Sata can now do something to change the situation!
Levy and Magande sold the mines yes but they redeemed their positions later. People like Magande argued against windfall tax for a long time until finally, they introduced it. So the question is why did RB and now Sata still insist that we do not need windfall tax???
two solutions for the way fporward:
1. Just reintroduce the tax OR
2. Get 50% shareholding in all major mines.
The 2nd option is happening in Botswana and Angola, the investors have not run away.
SATA, IF U ARE NOT SLEEPING, WHAT ARE YOU DOING???
WAKE UP SHIKULU TWAPAPATA!!!
Call MAGANDE and NAWAKWI hear their stories. Instruct CHIKWANDA to keep quiet or else fire him….!!!!
My thoughts as well, Levy may be was up to the task, sell it cheap because we haven’t got the money to invest, but start recouping through the windfall tax. It is up to those in power to ensure the windfall tax is brought back. Several ways, as they say to skin a cat. What Zambian politician in government has the guts to redeem himself?? PF has a chance to regain the confidence of the Zambian people. A good political opportunity if they are serious about serving Zambia.
I was wondering why everything was cheap under Mwanawasa. ZANACO was also sold fo $8m.
HH PLAYED A OLE IN THIS ONE BUT KEEPS ON BOASTING OF BEING AN INTELLIGENT ECONOMIST HE IS A SELLOUT EBA LENGA NO BUCHUSHI TULEPITAMOP MU KCM.I SHALL NEVER VOTE FOR HH IN MY LIFE NI KA BWALALA.
Mr President, remember that Mr. Chikwanda never stood on a platform to campaign for PF. He says we are lunatics because we want windfall tax, sure Bamudala naimwe mwasumina? Twapapata Bashikulu, SALAPUKENI!
These debts Chikwanda is accumulating willchoke all of us.
Latest exhange rate is above K6.50 what are you doing SATA, SATA, SATA, SATA??
Clink link below:
http://www.xe.com/currencyconverter/convert/?From=USD&To=ZMK&Amount=1
And now the old MMD faces are fighting hard to come back in power with such performances.
In the name of attracting foreign investors, they must be laughing at Zambia big time.
Where is Magande on this? Shame on us guys, i have owez questioned why ths govt cannot run its own mines.
How can a monkey insult a fellow monkey that you are monkey? Engineer ( Australia ) you are really cursed. Do you know what is happening in Zambia. 1) revamping the airport to international standard 2) pave 2000 3) link 8000 4) L400 5) revamping of UNZA 6) fly over road btwn arcades and UNZA 7) UNZA shopping mall 8) Robert Makasa university almost done 9) expandin of Great East Road 10) Chingola-kitwe dual carriage way 11) installation of toll gates 12) revamping of UTH with double deck car park 13) chongwe bridge almost done 14) Harry mkumbula airport almost done 15) now the bumper harvest at 3.3 m tonnes 16) and many many more projects. You ka Engineer is more of a monkey scavenging now in Australia. So what would your preferred candidate do if at all he will come to power? At ba Eng
You are the same dull chaps such as yourself, matipa, Wnzelu, suntwe, jay jay, ndobo, dudelove etc who condemned Sata when KCM tried to lay off 1500 workers. When Sata intervened you called him all sorts of names. You are such jerks. Now you see that Sata was right to intervene in KCM issue to halt the laying off workers. Shut if you have nothing to say good about someone ( Lucky Dube)
Yo are absolute right. Sata and his PF govt are doing alot. Come 2016, my household and i going to put HEMCS back into state house.
Bloggers will respond to you when sober up!!
…it makes me feel as though a well known/liked personality has died…As a Zambian, my morale is at its lowest ebb once again.
(while looking up in the sky, with both my hands raised) God why.? why us sure…?
Each day I wake up and switch on my Telly, I’m always greeted with ever lasting fierce riots, demonstrations, strikes in other countries..I look up in the sky and say thank you God… this is happening else where and not in my country…
But then, there comes the above video..I again look up in the sky without saying a word.. all I see is God laughing AT me without saying a word. I look outside through the window, everything seem to be normal as usual..guys in overalls rushing for work at Konkola Mine..my knees fail me and end up in a sofa with my head in my hands…
My question is, what is Sata doing about it apart from sleeping in state house? Is he not getting kickbacks? You cant blame the seller for things that happening now? Blame those who are failing to get tax from the crook?
Have the 200 missing Nigerian girls been found?
This is only possible if you have Masumba and Willie Nsanda for a minister. Beside these the other ones who boast of having PHDs are nothing but corrupt fools. How can a normal learned person think that an indian will come and develop Zambia leaving his back yard/-+9654
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I beg of people not to wait with bated breath for any action from the PF even after this video has been released. They will do absolutely nothing. Why, you ask? With PF, it will range from having no clue what to do because of extreme dullness to them also eating with both hands with bene Vedanta.
Chabipa sana
its f.oo.l like the Australian engineer who make even cheap indians insult zambians emagine how this foo.l licks the as of his employers for silver just coment without any solutions those are people chwa called metenance engineer probably doing cable joining in Australia engneers are not cheap but the Australian one is cheap they talk sence not this fo.ol emagine this foo.l has your boss he talks has if he is at a political rally where rhetoric is the name of the game.l doubt if this f.ool thinks my this people who attend seminars on sucumcion and start saying we have a solution to hiv think don’t just talk example h .h thinks and empliment his plan’s and becomes a successful business man and later joins politics to pass time like any other politicians whom we sadly looks up to for…
HH is partly to blame as he and his company were entrusted to evaluate our mines. Our major problem is that we think we are so smart and yet so stupid….welcome to Zambia. Inchito ku supporter bola…well eat your football…!
Never too late with tax issues. ZRA must pick the information in this video and collect all the due taxes and of course the penalties from the time Mr argawal bought the company(KCM). And please don’t involve innocent people like HH in the sale of mines as he had nothing to with. If you do not know things better shut your mouth.
The RICHEST CONTINENT on the Planet, yet The Poorest down trodden citizens.
Any wonder??
Africans are such a gullible Race, it makes ones heart bleed !
When we were posting tweets against allowing any mining in the Lower Zambezi, there was a deluge of ill informed Zambians who insulted us on this forum for daring to oppose the Mining Scam that was about to be unleashed on our Nation, & its people.
From arguments like, ” This Mine will lead to job creation” + other myopic views, it was so sickening to experience. However this was not my main concern.
My worry is some of these bloggers with such shortsightedness, & a lack of global politico/ socio economic understanding, will in the near future be running our country, & making decisions, that will affect all of us for generations to come.
@ Kaleni,
Now imagine having a secret interview with a European who comfirms to you how the west steal from Africa on a daily basis? To make matters worse, you know that they steal, but to hear it coming from his lips… imagine how it felt, feels knowing that African governments are responsible for how Africa is and looked at today! But am pissssssssed! Even Indias are proud of stealing from us sure!
@Cindy
The multinationals usually do not steal. Don’t have to. The politicians you elected are more than pleased to hand it over for the right kind of gratitude. Why do you think your politicians still hand out tax holidays? Do you think they do it for free?
There is a lot each running Government knows which the people of Zambia don’t know hence no WINDFALL TAX. Ask the Government because there is no way they have to keep quite even after these publications..
This is a true indication that the Zambian Government celebrates Mediocrity. It’s a sad nauseating episode that has made us Zambians look so cheap and stupid to allow our moral fabric degenerate before hundreds of laughing indians, courtesy of Vendata Chief. This needs serious reflection by people who value our assets and how presidents lower themselves by welcoming international visitors outside their league.
this is the saddest thing that i have ever heard on our mines, terribly sad and if vandetta will be let scot free then it will heart breaking to my fellow citizens.Zambia has been taken for a ride by infestors
If you look up the annual report at vedantaresources.com you will find on page 5 the EBITDA for Zambia copper reported to be $257 mill. Further out in the report you can read the numbers for the previous years, which are lower. He is exaggerating/bragging/lying to his friends if he actually says there is a yearly 500 mill profit. Vedanta has made a fortune from KCM, but not the numbers reported here. The Indian family would have to rob their fellow shareholders for more than half of their profit if they were telling the truth. And the profit is much lower than the EBITDA. My guess is that the annual report is more reliable than the video. The big question is how much of the 257 mill that ends up as taxable income in Zambia
I stand to be corrected only if the facts below can credibly be challenged and not for the sake of apple polishing and supporting the powers that be:
Sata can not change anything now because he was Secretary General of MMD when ZCCM mining division was privatized.
Anglo American got KCM in 2000 which it abandoned in 2002
In November, 2004 Vedanta robbed KCM from Zambians (Mathani was involved)
Francis Kaunda led the privatization of the mines on behalf of government. He was the Chairman of the Special Team On the Privatization of ZCCM & was Deputized by Luke Mwananshiku.
Can KCM be repossessed like Zamtel if Sata means well because Zambians have been duped by Vedanta that even have the guts to insult us! – Rubbish!
I think it is possible because these mines are in our land especially that we now know we were cheated properly!
Is it too late for correction to take effect ! these mines are in our land and we are the real owners.The government must look back and take this matter to industrial court with such facts of how the miners are suffering.
These issues will start and create vandalism in our mines.These Vendata guys must start getting reponsible to build hospitals and schools because if you stay in Chingola you agree with me their is no new school or hospital built ,even the hospitals the found do not function as they used to operte i grew up in ZCCM era! tis is day light robbery.
Why did Mwanawasa grab the privatization of kcm contract from ZPA? Why was it only a single bidder offer? Zambians think? And now you maintain the graves of your excellencies FTJ and Levy SC on prime land at great cost while your children write in the sand and hospitals have no medicine.
PARASTATALS never failed in this country What failed and still continue to fail is our system. All we need to do is re introduce PARASTATALS and find the best way to keep the LONG FINGERS of POLITICIANS off their COFFERS. PERIOD.
The government has continued to sell us!! these pipo should go! come investigate all Indian owned companies in zambia. I guess they are saying the same thing
so want is the alternative my friends! We are merely doing what we Zambians are very good at, talking and complaining! Egypt revolutionised themselves and country, twice, through people power, real patriotism. Lets use our people power and stop being so afraid and insular!