Chiluba and 19 others Ordered to pay back $46 million

1. For all it’s worth, this is welcome news to the people of Zambia and most of Africa, where leaders fail the accountability test… All you leaders please take note and be accountable to the constituencies. Can you imagine what that amount of money could have done for poor kids in our country? We could have, for instance, invested in a US$6 bond for approximately 2.5 million children in Zambia and yielded substantial amounts for each child by now… We could have repaired schools, we could have invested the money in grain storage, provided seed money for young and upcoming farmers… THE LIST GOES ON!!! Alas one somebody decided to dress themselves up… PLEASE NEVER LET US DOWN!

2. Well, good as this sounds, I think the judgment is a joke and just pure showboat as far as fair trial rules are concerned and I hope they just recover the money. You can’t pass judgment over somebody who has not had the opportunity to defend himself. This is mockery and a slap in the face of the justice system in my country.

   My question is why do the cases in the Zambia courts be speedily concluded if the same facts were presented in London where they secured the conviction. There is a problem here. This judgment would carry more weight and meaning if it was delivered in Zambia by a Zambia court.

   Otherwise to me it is just a show boat by the West on how Africans are poor because of corruption. I still think Chiluba & Co are guilty, but they should be given their day in court to prove otherwise and in this case they were NOT AND THAT MAKES THIS JUDGMENT A FULL BLOWN JOKE.

3. I love the western world judicial system. If FTJ does not recognise the British court judgement, i recommend that the Zambian courts pass the same Judgements.

4. It is a pity to read from my fellow zambians praising the judgement on chiluba. On whose interest?do you think if Balair commited a crime and a zambian court passes judgement on hime the British will be in the streets celebrating?what a pity?we are still slaves of our own making. What will benefit a zambian in mandevu, kalingalinga of kaputula in kabwe on this judgment. since zero toelrance was lauched by Mwanawasa, a small number of individuals have benefited from the state coffers at the expense of poor zambians and yet a life of a common zambian has not changed. I am very sad my dear zambians. wake up. you are still sleeping?

5. Although am yet to read the Judgment,I believe that this is a good Judgment for Zambia.Indeed the arm of the law is really long. It will serve as a deterrent to Zambian politicians who might want to launder money and put up investments in ‘safe havens’ overseas. For all I Know, the court had earlier own in the proceedings put a world wide injunction on the properties of Chiluba and his co-defendants. The Judgment will certainly be satisfied by the seizing of those properties and realising the Judgment debt.Remember the Sani Abacha funds.
   CHILUBA AND HIS CO-DEFENDANTS WERE ACCORDED THE RIGHT TO BE HEARD BUT THEY DECLINED TO DO SO. THIS IS WELL DOCUMENTED. Anyway if the defendants are dissatisfied with the entire or part of the Judgment they have the right to appeal up to the House of Lords.

6. Use that money to pay back ‘kaloba’ Levy got from China.

7. Sylvester, you are still sleeping. Haven’t you read that the fraud was committed in Britain and other parts of Europe.And thats the reason why the case had to go to those courts in London. The reason why those Magistrates of yours their cases are still pending is because they are still sleeping, and awaiting instructions from your Mwanawasa. In your Zambia, you do not have an independent judicial system. It is a pity that you do not know what will benefit a Zambian once those funds are returned,and are used in the economy,and luckily they are again not stolen by the politician’s.

8. Let me lend my support to Sylvestyer Mwanza’s views. I just find it hard to accept that a foreign court should reign in to dispense justice on our former head of state. I dont like many of the things FTJ did but am also not savage enough to deny the fundamental role he played to change the political and economic landscape of our country.

   Lets direct our energies to rooting out the legacy of corruption that FTJ left. The diplomatic censore that he’s received worldwide is in my view nearly sufficient punishment.

   The spirit of TRC was to document what happened but forgive.

9. There are two (2) sides to FTJ’s cases, the Civil and Criminal case. The civil case seeks to compensate damage to the plaintiff in the event that the accused is not found guilty in the criminal case. A civil case cannot precede a criminal case. Judge Smith should know that, he has just undermined the criminal cases that FTJ is facing. No one in their right frame of mind will say FTJ will receive a free and fair day in court. We all want to recover our money if at all FTJ store, but that doesn’t mean we lose our forcus. Need I remind all of you that Zambia is not a colony of the no longer United Kingdom? What the justice ministry in Zambia did by going to a foreign court is tantamount to passing a vote of no confidence in the Chief Justice, and Mr Sakala shouldn’t take this slap in the face laying down. The office of the chief Justice has been weakened. Our national soverenity compromised.
   If the intent of the civil case was to recover the stolen money. The proceedings should have been conducted in the Zambian courts by the Zambian Judges, and if found guilty, the government of Zambia should have asked the British government to freeze FTJ and cronies assets abroad.
   Most people argue that we have spent so much on the Task Force yet we have very little to show for. Well I hate to break your Hearts fellow Zambians. The most expensive product any nation can ever buy is democracy. And one of its fundamental tenents is the RULE OF LAW. If is very costly to be a nation that obeys the law. Sometimes it can cost you K1,000,000.00 to recover K1.00. What is expensive is the process of establishing whether one is guilty or innocent. And how long it takes cannot be predetermined. This brings me Judge Smith. Where did he get the evidence from and if he has evidence why doesn’t he pass on that evidence to the prosecutors in Zambia.

10. I believe that all the actions we do has to bring sustainable changes in our people lives. Passing a verdict on chiluba who has been under the courts for more than five years has not brought any change in the zambian people lives. The present regime war on corruption has a lot tyo be desired. I dont support corruption at all,l have bnever benefitted from any regime, however internationall our fellow african sates laugh at us tthe way we handle issues pertaining to our former leaders defence chiefs etc. so my brothers and sister who dont agree with my point of view l respect but let us also have some introspection to see if if are on course in eradicatijng poverty or we are just replacinfg my corrupt regime with another

11. Well put SAGE. My read from your piece as an economist is that the rule of law is a commodity with the special attribute that it determines our nation’s welfare and prosperity. Yet, there has to be a cost-effective way to buy this product. Educate the nation, decentralise national political power and resources, eradicate poverty and have leaders leading by example in upholding moral standards and giving people HOPE for a good future. If these are absent and politicians give us rhetoric while they live Moses Katumbi style, your cost of upholding the ROL will surely be unsustainable.

    “THE ECONOMIC BASE DETERMINES THE SUPERSTRUCTURE”

12. I think the judgement has been fair, because the judges in U.K had the evidence of all what happened, remembering that the Zambian account, were the money was pilfered from was in U.K, the shopping and payments were all done in U.K and may be other countries.

    Now this is fun, when it comes to sickness,the local treatment is not suitable,we should undermine the quality of our doctors, hence the need to seek tretament outside the country. When it comes to cases of corruption and stealing, even when the evidence and facts are abroad, it is undermining the sovereignity of Zambian Judicial system, what nonsence!

    I think in Zambia, every leader must be accountable to the general public. We don’t go into public service with an eye of wanting to be rich, the driving force should be to serve. If you want to be rich do your own business. We want people with clean hands to serve us in politics. What kind of hypocricy is this?

13. Mr Tembo, The Zambian Judges and prosecutors also have the Zamtrop account details. There is no way anyone would determine how much shopping was done using public funds unless the shoppers used credit cards linked to the Zamtrop account. The issue here is not the Judgement. the issue is DOES JUDGE SMITH HAVE JURISDICTION OVER THESE CASES. The answer is no. The only think judge smith can do with his judgement is freeze the assets of FTJ and Cronies. of which could have been achived if the Zambian Judges and prosecutors handled the case. The second issue is he has prejudiced the criminal cases.

14. The President (unlike the Emperor)needed Clothes

15. FTJ: Joze, I had a dream, I saw 10 fat cows eating
    good pasture and later on they were eaten by 10
    thin cows. What does it mean Joze?

    Ba Joze:
    FTJ,thats simple, you had enjoyed as a
    president for 10 years and you will suffer for
    10 years and its written FTJ.

    FTJ: I made a mistake to hand picked LPM ai?

    Ba Joze:
    I said its wirtten FTJ, any one would have done
    same LPM is doing.

16. Please stop this debate. How many of you have benefited in this corruption fight? Look at the boats are rotting at the Tasks force and to whose benefits? How many vehicles where recovered and now they can’t even move but millions have been used to recover them. Costs have now surpassed the benefits. Sylvester mwanza tell them.

17. The reason why the case was in UK:
    “The case was taken to the High Court in London because of the money that passed through accounts in London and then disbursed to Switzerland, Belgium, and the US.
    London was at the centre of wrongdoing by 20 defendants based in Zambia, England,Belgium, Switzerland and the US”

18. Mwelwa.This is a landmark decision. One of the benefits is that Politicians will think twice to swindle us because the same procedure will be followed. It also puts the current leadership on test as to how they will utilise the monies to be recovered. We will watch them. For your own information, FJT is associated with a number of alledged scandals. This is just one of them; there is the Katumbi $7m, Ramcoz, “Carlington” maize deal. As if this was not enough, the man is alleged to have grabbed somebody’s wife. He is also said to have called LPM from his political retirement and annointed him as his successor instead of the old serpent(King Cobra),thinking that LPM will dance to his tunes.What a President we had? It was ‘nichekeleko’ all over.

    Well done LPM.

19. A landmark decision on FTJ? Perhaps if you look at the precedent that our leaders have allowed to set and also to hoodwink our independent justice system with that of the foreign one, you would call it a landmark decision! This has been so with a lawyer at the herm of Zambian politics. What a shame it has been but not surprising because that lawyer has some U.K. roots in his credentials. Be assured no that no developed nation (the U.K. or the U.S.A.) could have allowed any of its leaders let alone an ordinary citizen of theirs appear before a foreign court even though some transactions took place in those foreign countries. A great shame to our judgment and bad precedent that we have caused to our judicial system, this one is! I am glad that FTJ rejected the jurisdiction of that court and I would have no problem if the Zambian courts were the ones that passed the judgment.

20. Ba Kayata… Still that doesnt give UK jurisdiction over the case. The prudent thing should have been Zambian judges in Zambian Courts prosecuting Kafupi and then seek for help from their London counterparts to free assets owned by Kafupi and cronies.

21. Thank You CK.

22. There’s something circular about this anti-corruption process in Zambia. Lawyers on both sides are all in it for the same money they believe is lying somewhere. With no apparent reason other than incompetence,
    Nchito and others have benefited ENORMOUSLY from an extended,futile legal process. Its now cheaper to tolerate the corruption.

    Many Zambians-not least the President- think that this is now much delayed and therefore useless justice?

    Despite the intention to use the money for poverty reduction, we are losing it, and much more, to pay these suckers called lawyers who produce nothing of economic value. The true heroes of our national economic life are wallowing in poverty. Sickening.

23. I think you should use the money to develop the country. Guys we are tired of seeing our country suffering in such a way. Away we will see what the Government is gone do with that. I can’t comment much about it but please lets work together to develop our nation not stealing. This will take us no way and at the end of the day other countries will be laughing at us.

24. Kalima, first you pay the bloody legal expenses. Whatever will be left will be spent on other handling and bank charges. You can bet nothing will go to UTH or Chibelo basic school.

25. Iam really upset about what`s going on.How can you let another country pass judgement on our former President.Moreover he did a lot for this country.Try to appreciate him a minute.Iam not trying to defend him on what they did but respect him by letting our own Zambian Judges to do it than letting the whole world know.I hope the same thing won`t happen to President Mwanawasa.Because i don`t see this trend ending.

26. There will be no money left to build the country Nchito’s now own an airline out of prosecuting kafupi.
    First what is the definition of plunder? “To rob of goods by force, especially in time of war” This is the Webster’s definition of plunder. Then what do we call legally plundering of national resources by prosecuting a case for 6 years? What we have now is professionals legally plundering our national resources In the name of the Task Force. The question is how can we legally Grab legally plundered resources like Zambian airways and National Milling?

27. Theresa, my sister. Chiluba and his group preferred to do their dealings in London and not Lusaka. The law firms they used to siphon the money were English Law firms. The Zamtrop Account was maintained in London. The main rogue companies which were used as conduits were registered in London and tax havens Like British Virginia Islands. In what is known as the rules of conflict of laws, London had close proximity to the case and thus better placed to handle the civil matter than Zambia Court. Besides it is easier to enforce a Judgment handed down by a British Court in those overseas places than a Zambian one.There is nothing upsetting in having a judgment which can not be executed.

    Theresa, my sister, I could have agreed with you if your upset arose as a results of a criminal judgment. This is a civil judgment. Chiluba’s day in a Zambian criminal court is still pending. He has been applying for adjournments due to his ill health. It is my prayer that he recovers fully.

28. M.Daka, Thanks for that explanation, i hope it has simplified to alot of people why the case was in London and not Lusaka, even if it was a criminal case, the culprits would have been extradited to the place where the crime occurred.Ba C.K said, UK or US would nt have allowed it’s citizen’s to be tried in a foreign court, i hope Ba C.K is aware that those Natwest Bank managers who were involved in the financial scandal at Enron in America were extradited and are to be tried in the US courts. Ba CK na Ba Sage, Chiluba did not want to go to UK for fear of embarrasment and his lawyer’s know that. If a person anywhere in the world commits a crime outside their country, they will be handed over to the country where the crime occurred. The process is extradition, though mainly extradition is criminal in most terms

29. Fellow countrymen and women , let us not lose sight of our independence.Where is our sovereignity?Smith has just used the same evidence and materials to pass judgement which any court in Zambia would have managed and adequately resolved.The legal fees alone for the two cases handled by DLA piper will not be less than £3.4m, in your own wisdom ,couldn’t these monies been put to good use if we had engaged our local judicial system?In real sense this civil judgement will be difficult to pursue and is just mere waste of money, time and energy.What LPM should have done , having known the receipients of those monies who are wholly resident in the EU, today EU thru OECD have put up laws that adqaytely deal with persons stealing from developing nations.Its a shame and disgusting way of dealing with national issues especially that of office of President.Can you all imagine Tony Blair being tried by Tamula Kakusa over cash for honors?Let us not be winked into being myopic, FTJ has totally ctd

30. It is disappointing to read some comments where people are wondering whether the money recovered will benefit the common man like me.Firstly,it will be very unrealistic to think that only cases that will directly benefit the public are the only ones we will prosecute.The war atrocities committed on the Jews in 1939-1945,the perpetrators are being punished now.l just read an article on CNN that Carols the Jackal,will have to stand trial for crimes he committed in 1975.So what am l saying,Justice should be done no matter when the crime was committed and it does not matter how much money is involved,but that Law was broken.Why was Chiluba and his Matrix tried in England,because the crime was done there PERIOD!!!.
    Recently we read of a Zambian arrested in Singapore for drugtrafficking.Where should stand trial in Zambia?.I think we should rise above partisan politics on matters of national importance and recogize that a crime is a crime and there is a punishement for it.

31. recognised that he is a Zambian citizen bound by the laws of Zambia not UK,This stupid dormninace by the west to oppress others is not what the world must yearn for,no wonder they have built useless prison like quantanamo bay just to infringe on innocent citizens.Zambia is a sovereign country and must deal with its issues as a nation.Shansonga was aided by LPM machinery to flee to the UK and today is a named as conspiracy,this a bad precedent for us.This is rather a more personalised type of pursuit which wont yield anything.If FTJ is declared bankrupt today what next?where are the losers and winners.DONT JUST GET EXCITED FOR NOTHING, ZAMBIA IS AN INDEPENDENT COUNTRY WITH ABLE MEN AND WOMEN WHO CAN RENDER ADEQUATE JUSTICE in the existing judicial system.”Do unto others that you would not want done unto you”
    Thresa & CK I thank you for your concern

32. THE HOUR HAS COME FOR FTJ.

33. Thanks for the contributions friends. In the U.S.A. some cases that could not be resolved by the lower courts and were sent to the Supreme Court, were actually sent back by the Supreme Court to the lower courts to make their rulings! Reasons? Simple! The cases were complex but ones that the lower courts could handle. The U.S. Supreme Court could not set precedents on those thorny cases hence their decision to push the cases back to the lower courts. In the judicial systems although there will always be firsts, our learned friends should not set precedents that could easily destroy our independent legal system! Once again, what a shame! Did the champions of democracy and rule of law send back millions of dollars that Mobutu or Savimbi left locked up? Who were the beneficiaries? There is more to it than you may think but Mr. President do not defile our legal system please!

34. I wonder what our courts in Zambia are there for!! and I have never seen a Briton brought to Zambian courts for Judgement.Where is the freedom of Zambians, are you Zambians still been ruled by England? It is a shame to see others supporting the judgement of Dr Chiluba in England.

    That shows the problem in Zambian laws.I was going to be very happy if Dr Chiluba was convicted and judged by the Zambia courts.

    What has happened is like opening your house to a strenger to come and teach and pass the law in your House.

    I don’t support Dr Chiluba, but where is our courts? I feel so sorry for our president who has allowed this to happen, next time, it will be you Mr president tried and judged in England.

    All the case’s in Zambia should be transfered to England for a good Judgement, Mwanawasa’s courts have failed.!!!!!!!

35. A true Zambian can never support the Judgement of Dr Chiluba in England.

    I totally agree with Mac. Where is our courts? I feel so, so Sorry for Zambians.why didn’t the Zambian courts request any evidence which Smith had and pass on the Judgement besed on there findings.

    I wonder if Mr Mwanawasa is a our President in Zambia or Ton B. is the president.

    Chiluba is a Zambian, a true Zambian who should be protected by the laws of Zambia and judged by the laws of zambia.

    It means all the Zambian people in prisons today where just pushed into the prisons because our judge’s are no good at all.

    Shame on you the west, and shame on you all Zambian supporting such things, may God help Zambia

36. Mr Mwanawasa will be worse than Chiluba. The Law of the Land of Zambia will visit Mwanawasa when he is out of State House,

    He is the next victim, Chiluba started by attacking Kaunda and Mwanawasa got on Chiluba, now the one who will be coming who is powerful than Mwanawasa, will pounce on Mwanawasa. that is how it goes. I can’t wait to see it happen.

37. If Blair’s cash for honours allegations has any connection to Zambia, and the British Government thinks that it will get a better civil judgment in Zambia, it is possible for Tony Blair to be tried by Judge Kakusa. There many British citizens who have been tried by our courts for offences and civil cases connected to Zambia.

    People it is not a matter of the west oppressing others. This case was not commenced by the Blair Government. It was commenced by our own Attorney General on behalf of all Zambians, whether one is in support of the matter being tried in London or not.

    As for the legal costs,they are usually paid by the judgment debtors.Chiluba and his group will shoulder this and what have has been paid in legal fees may be recovered that in that way.

    By the way,Francis, are you aware that the Premier League of England has commenced civil proceedings against google/you tube for copyright infringements in New York rather than in London.

38. On Shansonga, my view is that the Zambian authorities boobed in letting him gone to England on the pretext that he was going to retrieve some documents vital to the criminal case. It reminds me of that story about the shark and the monkey. The shark wanted to eat the monkey’s heart. The monkey told the shark that monkeys leave their hearts in trees and was allowed to go and get it. The thing is that the monkey never came down from the tree and the shark lost its prey. But this only relates to the criminal case. Shansonga’s assets in British Virginia Islands have not escaped the long arm of the law. There is alot an injunction over the over. If he does not pay the judgment debt, those assets will be sold to satisfy the judgment.

39. Wow! It is so amazing to read all your comments on this issue. I see alot of rage and anger expressed in all your sentiments.Intergrity, Honesty,and sincerity are rare to find in our leaders.Can someone explain to the Zambians on how the case found its self in the London high court when we have a judicial system in Zambia? Its good that to see so much money come back in the Zambian govt coffers but not sure if that will solve all of Zambia’s economic and social challenges.

40. The four-month long case which has been said to be of major importance for the fight against corruption in Africa, Mr Justice Peter Smith held that Chiluba took part in two separate conspiracies to siphon off the money.
    Who says that corruption is only inAfrica? This i foud in a international web newspaper called the http://www.thelawyer.com
    “Chiluba laundered the money through two London law firms, Meer Care & Desai and Cave Malik & Co, who were part of the conspiracy.

    These firms involvement, however, meant that the case could be brought in London as it was considered to be the centre of wrongdoing with the stolen money passed through bank accounts in London.”
    Shame! Shame!

41. UK lawyers helped Zambia ex-president launder £23m

    · High court judgment tells of shameless plunder
    · Serious fraud officers investigate London firms

    David Pallister
    Saturday May 5, 2007
    The Guardian

    Two London law firms, including one run by Nelson Mandela’s personal UK lawyer, were involved in a conspiracy to launder part of $46m (£23m) “plundered” by a former African president, a high court judge ruled yesterday at the end of a secret four-month trial.
    Both firms are under investigation by the Serious Fraud Office and the City of London police for handling the proceeds of crime. One insider has described the investigation as the “flagship corruption case for sub-Saharan Africa”.

    N.B. This is to provide you people with what really was behind the scenes in the Matrix of Plunder in Zambia.

42. Very well for the judgement!! Shud we be excited?? Well, if Judge Smith was really serious, he would have muted Extradition proceedings for Shansonga to start with. I find it hard to believe our govt hasn’t thought of it, becoz all this smacks of mockery. FTJ & co haven’t out done people like Mobutu & others, they too spent their monies in Europe, how many of those cases have been prosecuted out there?
    Another thing , which has already been alluded to is the nature of complexity of retrieving any of the said monies. If anything have the legal companies that the money went thru in the UK, been referred to their BAR Association for involvement in fraud? If so what is the punishment? We shud always remember, 3rd world money always ends up in 1st,where borrowed from
    and as long as that cycle continues, we know which party is the happier party, & laugh they will, only too happy to try cases for us. If they had been concerned, they wouldn’t have watched for 10 yrs, as they lent us dosh

43. Finally the “Great Thief” has received his judgement! This is a lesson to all AFrican leaders. Bravo Levy, but we shall check your record during your tenure of office as well. All those who feated with Chiluba must be feeling terrible. Kuyabebele bakawalala

44. Chiluba, ukabweshe impiya. Bunda bwama suit fululu

45. I agree that our legal system is being brought to question here, but then I am sure that whoever is in power will think twice about stealing… I want to make my point loud and clear to all leaders (incumbent and aspiring) ‘BE ACCOUNTABLE TO THE CONSTITUENCIES…OR SIMPLY STEP DOWN OR LEAVE IT FOR SERIOUS PEOPLE!’. Over and out!

46. I don’t know if the judgement will bring any changes to our beloved Zambia. I would like to see our courts handling such cases. Has Zambia ever handled any case involving a former or current west leader before? If not, why? They respect their courts. I don’t trust Judge Smith in the first place. Didn’t Blair or any British leader know anything about this? Completely no one and nothing? BIG LIE!!! Didn’t the Designing company know how much money Chiluba was being paid? Another Big Lie!!! How much interest did the British Banks make on tne same stolen moey? Are they going to return it to my beloved Zambia too? The west will continue cheating on us.

47. MN, do you really think the leaders will think twice? I don’t think so! Only God knows how much more the current Government has stolen. Wait a bit, you will hear about it if Mwanawasa wont seek a third term.

48. Comment 37 and 38, M.Daka,i like your realistical views. Good points,but people will never understand how the law operates, no matter how much explanation is given,hence we are still seeing the judicial system in Zambia is not yet indepedent. People are always blaming the west for imposing rules on them,as if the west come on their own. Patriotism is fine, extreme patriotism is not acceptable. Why do people hate the west? Meanwhile, when they were ruling we were better off than our leaders whoare stealing morning,noon and night. People please lets be realistic and let not pride eat us. Other people believe that theory and practice is not possible in Zambia.

49. OJ, be realistical too, Comment 37 and 38 has explained to you, You dont trust Judge Smith,but you trust your Judges in Zambia who have taken 6 years to finish a case,when they have all the evidence on the table. Main reason why we are not developing too,work is always piling up on our tables, and always awaiting instructions.

50. Kelvin Musanga, you are contradicting yourself on Comments 40 and 41.

51. A lesson to past and present thiefs

52. Daka, how do you compare the Premiership case with this one? I neeed your guidance, of course Iam aware about the court proceedings in the US but one fact is UK and USA have some agreements regarding their judicial systems that is why you see its very easy to extradite people from UK to the states or vice versa.The FTJ’s case of reasoning that Smith choose to hold it in UK because thatis where the money changed hands is nonsense,then even the banks that held these monies must be charged for money laundering because they were dubiously obtained? Of course that is far fetched, which ever way there is no justification for such a case to be tried in UK.All levy wanted was to shame FTJ and his cohorts to the world and justify to the masses that he stole,this case has no ethical merits to be handled by UK courts.The evidence attested to could have been presented to the Zambian courts.We have exposed our selves to be neo colonised,sinwe have no confidence in our own lawyers,Doctors.

53. Good analysis Chilumba.

54. Francis, the premiership being English had the option of commencing that case in an English court but opted to commence it in New York because New York has close proximity to the case.That does not mean that British court are inferior. In our case the Attorney General decided to take the civil case to London not because our courts are inferior but because London had close proximity to the case. Even LAZ gave a legal opinion on this and justified the jurisdiction which was pted. Francis, you will do well to read the judgment.

    Coming to think of it, the issue of jurisdiction is periphery. Even FJT and his group brought it as an after thought almost two years after they had filed their defences. The issue is whether Zambia was defrauded through the Zamtrop Account in London. Whether rogue companies registered abroad were not used to siphon money from Zambia. Whether Government funds were not misapplied to pay a swiss tailor not a Zambian one.

55. He is guilty, full stop. For Chiluba’s cronies i know they are failing to come to terms with this and diverting the attention to involvement of the London courts. i dont care where, infact this demonstrates the long arm of the law. I hope Zambia is sovereign enough to treat its own patients instead of sending them to south africa…

56. Daka, see my comment on 49, I have read the judgement and find nothing dificult to have the case heard in Zambia,LAZ over court issues I doubt very much if they gave their opinion cos they are an independent entity whose interests lies somewhere.The co accused in this case are high profile persons who could have attested the same way had the case been tried in Zambia,We all know that the transactions were done fraudlently through the banks(see para 4-6), and our govt with the help of British govt would have helped to provide evidence in any case had we sought to do so
    In retrospect,arguably its the integrity that counts not the basis of decision as to where the case is heard.Smith has given only the executive summary of the case, in reality a civil case can not precede a criminal case.Smith has made flowery of this case to justify its existence in the English courts.
    The whole thing is ultravires and has no merit whatsover, its just rediculous to say the least

57. Francis. The issue is whether FJT misapplied government funds at hand. Your answer to this critical question lies deep down your heart and you have not addressed it and it is not for any one to compel you to have a different answer. You have not also addressed FJT and his group’s desire to have London, a foreign jurisdiction, as the centre of all the deals they did. They didn’t they register fake companies in Lusaka? Everything was practically happening in London.
    As for me I have no doubt in my mind that FJT and his co-defendants both Zambian and foreign misappropriate government funds and decided by the court in London.Further, I have no doubt in my hand that given the same facts, a Zambian court would have arrived at the same decision. It is therefore a good Judgment. Why London: see my comments at 27 and 37.

    If FJT is not happy with the Judgment is free to appeal otherwise he should be remorseful about this scandal.

58. Daka, you seem to have missed the point Chilumba is trying to stress.Its common sense to all that FTJ stole but the selective pursuit by your Levy is what is of paramount importance,Its of no interest whether FTJ appeals or not , what is at play is the illogicality by LMP and Co to try a former President before an Englishman.period. Grow up this is not a class room where you have to put an example to all your analyses.
    Our Integrity as a nation as been eroded by disillutioned people like you.
    If you are not a proud Zambian migrate to Smith’s den and continue looking prospects from there.
    Democracy is govt by ,of and for the people not foreigners presiding over our judicial system.
    FTJ dont even try to appeal this a rubbish way of doing things , just bring back the money all will be rosy for you.Forget about this Smith he enjoys infringing third world persons like you.Shame on you Smith

59. Kuku, if you are saying FJT stole, then stop complaining about the Judgment because that is what effectively it is saying.

    You may be hurt, upset, frustrate, annoyed, angry and anything in those lines, but uour being personal and use of abusive language will not launder FJT’s dented national and international image. It just shows one’s lack of analytical abilities. If you have read the debate I have with Francis, he has come out to a rational person despite having contrary view from mine and I like him for that. This is what should be encouraged and not “lumpenising”.

    Therefore Kuku cool down and be rational. You might have a heart attack,God forbid.

60. Daka,I refer to your comment 57 ,I notice that you cant interpret my thinking, firstly I dont need to place emphasis on whether FTJ stole or not its common knowledge to everyone that the Matrix existed and is real,
    Secondly, time in memorial (Zanaco London) was used even by KK to support freedom movements for neighbouring nations thru Zamtroop.Mind you this account has been in existence for ages and soley for OP issues except here it was abused,
    Thirdly as regards your comment 54 go to http://www.youtubeclassaction.com and facts surrounding this case are very different from the one above are very concise and articulate, kindly have fun on that site.
    Lastly ,Its my prayer that we call a spade a spade not a folk.This case would have carried the much desired outcome had it been handled by Zambian judicial system.Its the principle that is of great importance?Should we outsource the judicial system ,medical system?

61. Welcome judgement!

    If someone steals US$46m, who care which court finds him guity? The chap thought the law would never visit him…

    He even had the cheek to challenge being taken to South Africa for treatment. The government should recover that nedical bill from him..

    Contrats Levy

62. 58 and 60 make very good reading. They shamelessly justify stealing with 101 reasons. Engineering at its best. We might be dealing with FTJ himself here

63. Levy is a Thief, believe me!!!!!!!

64. comment 64 you are absolutely right.Birds of the same feathers flock together.UK cannot boast to try FTJ for corrupt practices when themselves are sheilding highly corrupt figures like Primier Thaksin Shinawatra of Thailand, the Premier lady of Bangladesh and many more, these are double standards by the West, preaching goodnes when they themselves are full of deadmen’s bones.Thailand Premier today wants to buy Machester City with dirt money and they are just watching,FTJ only God yours destiny not the muwelewele bandwagon.If UK wants to be a leader in the fight of graft it should lead by example.Smith its time you called your own leaders ‘Thieves’because they are shielding Presidents who have looted from their nations and allowing to spend the blood money within UK.This is a shame, woe to you LPM,Smith,God will deal with you, the measure you give is the measure you get.

65. beware those who kill by the sword will die by the sword

66. No one disputes FTJ’s crookedness; however to be very objective, we shud also look at cases such as the Saudi Arms deal with BAE which Tony Blair hurriedly suspended as,”It wasn’t in the public interest, threatened British National interests & business!!” So such Broad-daylight corruption is acceptable becoz saudi’s have bucks which UK will do anything to lay its hands on them! So it a good day for Zed, but we shud look the other way when the Brits are in full force doing it to the Saudi’s!

    It is such a pity the Judiciary, the Lawyers of this country, whom we all have taken for granted to protect our sovreignity, that have actually sold us down the river – cases they have been presiding over for so many yrs & nothing to show for it,BUT, yet again use our borrowed taxpayers money to line their pockets, and subcontract someone else to do their work. Who has really benefited from this judgement, other than LPM & cronies who now can say, wetold you so!! Well, we didn’t need being told.

67. Sylvester, wake up man!!! You don’t need to be a lawyer to know that jurisdiction takes place in the country where the crime is committed. Do not get confused by FTJ’s claims that we succumbed to his ill-perceived and intentional insinuations about replications here. His cases for sins committed in Zambia are with the Zambian courts my friend, and judgement is coming, see. Look at the case of the 21 year old Zambian woman arrested in Malaysia. Are you suggesting she comes to Zambia for trial???

68. Sylvester, wake up man!!! You don’t need to be a lawyer to know that jurisdiction takes place in the country where the crime is committed. Do not get confused by FTJ’s claims that we succumbed to his ill-perceived and intentional insinuations about replications here. His cases for sins committed in Zambia are with the Zambian courts my friend, and judgement is coming, see. Look at the case of the 21 year old Zambian woman arrested in Malaysia. Are you suggesting she comes to Zambia for trial???

69. I feel this judgement is not at all good for promoting democracy in Africa. While, I am not supporting President Chiluba, for his wong doings, I say he must be given full credit for handing over power peacefully at the end of his his terms. If this trend continues, no leader in future will respect elections and will stay in power, justifying that it would be better for him to die in office rather than be persecuted like a crimnal. In my view Chiluba’s sin are forgiven for adgering to the principals of the democracy. GOD Bless Africa.
    John Phiri, Lusaka

70. With all respect, we do not seem to have the required resources to handle these advanced acts of theft by Chiluba and his thugs. Currently Chiluba is facing a case for only USD 488,000 or so, which is a fraction of what Judge Smith has unearthed. The UK court has shown facts of transactions and how much Chiluba stole. People can we wake up and stop urguing about the judgement. I need Government now to explain what they are going to do. Chiluba’s assets including an up stair house in Ndola should be sold.If the judge has frozen these assets, let them dispose them off and instead of building him a K 1 billion mansion, recover that money from him. I have no mercy for thieves. Sale the bloody Helicopter you bought which is just packed. You are also useless corrupt SC who has no feelings for the poor zambians. The luxury you are enjoying is short lived. Look at your past. You were not born rich. Chiluba had to pay for your feels when you got sick at one time. You are not a king.

71. A lot has already been said about the FTJ landmark decision and how subjecting a former Head of State to a foreign curt jurisdiction undermines the Zambian Judicial system. This whole case or saga, if you want, highlights the inadequacies of our court system. The question we should be asking is why is the Zambian Judicail system so slow? How can it take more than 4 years to decide on a case. The London Court started siting only last year October/November if I am correct and has taken just about 6 to 7 months. What comes to mind is lack of planning on the part of Zambian Courts. If you have followed high profile cases in UK or USA, courts set a calendar of events – when the prosecution starts and ends its submission and a similar calendar for the defence. This gives a time frame within which the case can be decided – and that’s what the London Court did. The result, the entire case before the Zambia Courts has been undermined and rendered academic.

72. All the comments from Paster M Daka are useless.

73. Oh, my God! I’m not a Paster. I know you meant Pastor. I equally not a Pastor. I have not been called to be one. If you want to be form, to salute me, its Ms M. Daka. Otherwise I’m comfortable with M.Daka and just Daka.

    My comments still stand whether useless to some people,like you or not.

74. I really wonder where the Zambian Courts are but I dispute not the charges aginst Chiluba . You realise this from Chiluba’s turning round of the run down economy in his first term and the benefits we are still seeing,i and how things changed to a stand still in the second term. ‘ But where are Zanbian Courts.

75. Intresting comments to say the least.
    Do we reaally think FTJ will pay back 85% of the plundered money?Even if he paid it do we really thing you and i would benefit(directly or indirectly)from it let alone the “poor”!Its now cheaper to tolarate corruption here in Zambia.My opinion is that we let FTJ go.We all know he stole,we all recognise there were thieves but vengence does not belong to us but the Lord.
    Which ever way you look at it,goverment allways wastes money and resources and surely this govt is no exception.Besides its still the same MMD govt to me whether levy of frederick or whoever next will come(through fraudulant selections not elections!)I think we should put this rubbish to rest and concentrate on educating our children and building houses from plundered resources from our workplaces and pretend FTJ never stole.

76. Guys ngufwileniko uluse please, i did not know what i was doing, ichi ichipuna chalishupa, lets see what LPM will come out with. I hear all the points dished out, judgement be it in london or locally, at the end of the day you all know that i stole with my nine other colleagues. Thanks to 62 for noticing that i ve been part of the forum all along.

77. Kayata, i never said i trust Zambian Judges. But I find it senseless for Chiluba to be tried in a foreign court. I believe he is guilty quite ok, but why didnt our local courts use the same evidence? Why has it taken so long for UK to release such information? What is Blair saying? Am sure, the UK government knew something.

78. If the judgement was by Zambian Judges, its okey, but for the country to sink so low as take its citizen to another country, especially its former colony, is degrading ourselves. We all know FTJ plundered our money, but for God’s sake let us have dignit for ourselves. FTJ is a zambian and he is still in zambia, he is not a resident of Britain. No!!. My appeal is for our zambian Judges to try and judge this kafupi chap, who had declared to us that power is sweet, when in actual sense he meant, money is sweet. LPM watch out, you are the next, dont think 2011 is very far. When HH comes he should do the same to you, since you are always in British hospital even for simple headache. You are plundering our money through your sickness (ukulwalila). MULI BALWASHI BATA LPM.

79. I would like to bring a litle attention to my fellow Zambians by looking at Iraq unending war which the west call democracy. Can you expect the accuser to be the judge? How do you take democracy on the wings of a B fiftytwo bomber? and how can you see democracy where the tanker has passed.Are you telling me that Sadam killed more than what the American have killed? Do you really se the judegment that went for sadam was of the Iraqis? I thought Zambia was independent which should also include the courts, but that is something else now.What is wrong with our courts?How much money has the Zambian gov. paid to those foreighn judges which should have been paid to our own judges.Why are you making the rich more richer and the power more powerer?
    Remember that what Geoge Bush did to Sadam was exactly what the Bible forbids, if you kill the killer that means you take over his sins, so remember that Sadam now is a motir and Bush has inherited Huseins sins which is making him kill even more

80. Ms Daka…. I Think you being blinded by your hate for FTJ aka Kafupi. The question that has been repeated over and over is a jurisdiction issue. Moreover we are talking about the former president here for crying out loud. We all agree kafupi should be prosecuted by the Zambian Courts. We all know the cases are awfuly to long. but that does not justify surrendering you soverenity to your former colonial master. If we can prosecute treason cases we can surely prosecute corruption cases. If you follow international news Magaratte Thatchers son who is mecenary was arrested couple of years in South Africa. The british government wanted him to be prosecuted in UK. So my sister again No one disputes that FTJ should be prosecuted but it should be done by the Zambian Judges through the Zambian Courts. If the government can not collect evidence there is nothing wrong with the Zambian prosecutors contracting a private company of individuals to help them with evidence.

81. What a mockery to our justice system. We are so desperate to nail down FTJ, that we can even forego our own laws. How many leaders in these foreign countries who have stolen money, have been tried in Zambia. Some of you ignorantly argue that these funds were stashed away in foreign accounts, that’s why FTJ was tried by Smith. What a shame. What credibility can anyone render to such a judgement. Nchito’s have probably looted far much more money than FTJ. If you remember veryy well, when LPM was hand-picked, FTJ and X. Chungu had to pay off his FRA debt so they could improve his credibility. Was he then not elected on corruption funds. Ask yourselves how he came up with money to campaign. We are just digging our graves as every leader will be out to get his predecessor. Why do we need a white person, in this day and age,to tell us what to do? Zambia has it’s, own laws and I would suggest we stick to them.

82. OJ, When LPM removed FTJ’s immunity everyone was happy,maybe you too. But a rule of absolute immunity for the President does not leave the Nation without sufficient protection against his misconduct. Although there is no blanket recognition of absolute immunity for all executive officials from liability for civil damages resulting from constitutional violations, certain officials — such as judges and prosecutors — because of the special nature of their responsibilities, require absolute exemption from liability. In short, law usually contradicts itself and it all depends on how well you defend it. How do you compare Charles Taylor of Sierra Leone been tried by an international court? Each govt dept interprets the law differently. All in all, if FTJ still enjoyed his immunity, i too, would have been one of the people to condemn the UK court session’s. But without immunity, he is liable and must be prosecuted for offences just like any other citizen of zambia.

83. Kayata… Charles taylor is being tried for crimes against humanity. for your information he is being prosecuted by the international court of justice. which has jurisdiction over such cases. FTJ is being prosecuted for abuse of office not UK office but Zambian. Did you know that if the Zambian High commisioner to UK was involved in some corrupt practices in UK. all they British government could do is ask the Zambian government to recall him and deal with him. Now about the former president. Not even Saddam could be prosecuted by the USA courts. why think about that.

84. It is all very well debating issues of foreign courts and legal procedural matters in relation to civil cases and criminal cases involving the same facts, however, it is instructive and incisive that the ‘thieves’ concerned had a well organised and structured matrix that closely followed the principles and routes of international money laundering consistent with organised crime and even international terrorism.These have been players brought to book, but how many out there have got away with it dating from 1964? This is not new. ZCCM was a clearing house for corruption during the KK era. Focussing on issues of UK foreign courts, whose legal systems we closely follow anyway, is akin to shooting the messenger and avoiding the real issues. Theft on a grand scale and abuse of trust and lack of accountability is exactly that. Our ‘leaders’ see political power as a license to print money and pursue unbridled acquisitive practices.Hitler recognised that, Mobutu too.Change will be slow.

85. My Brother Sage…..,first i made an error on comment 82 that Taylor of S.Leonne instead of Liberia. Dont forget that Charles Taylor is protected by immunity from his govt and was to appear before a court in Sierra Leone, hence the dispute and it been refered to a court that deals with disputes between 2 states. But like i mentioned, FTJ’s immunity was removed,and is liable to appear before any foreign court for civil and criminal crimes.

86. AM and OJ, by removing the immunity of FTJ,this is what it basically meant. No protection,so i do not understand when you mention of the sinking so low. Because FTJ knew he was protected by the immunity and would nt be removed, he took advantage of it. Wasn’t LPM laughing in Parly when he was announcing the removal. FTJ should have challenged it. And FTJ knew that because of TRANSPARENCY in developed countries courts, he refused to appear before them, why didn’t he challenge it in court. he had no immunity. FTJ knows that in Zambia, his cases would never finish until he is old enough to appear before a court, and the cases will continue to be adjourned.

87. As Chiluba’s case in London was a civil and not a criminal case,there was no need to remove his immunity. He was, actually, not being prosecuted in London. He is facing criminal charges in Lusaka.The case of Thatcher’s son was should be distinguished from Chiluba’s case because that case was a criminal case. Charles Taylor’s case is different from Chiluba’s because he was facing criminal charges.What I understand is that a criminal case is different from a civil one because the proof is beyond reasonable doubt while in a civil case it is on a balance of probability. It is however, possible for the a criminal case and a civil one to be heard simulteneously in two different courts on the same facts.
    An analogy could that Ms. X is injured due to the dangerous driving of Mr. B. Mr. B will be prosecuted for dangerous driving (criminal). Despite this Ms. X can sue Mr. B for personal injuries(civil).The London case therefore will not prejudice Chiluba’s criminal case in Lusaka.

88. This is can is really not about hating Chiluba. It is just that the very long arm of the law has caught up with him as it can with anybody else including the State Counsel LPM if he finds himself in similar circumstances.

    What we should as Zambia is to watch how the proceeds of the Judgment will be applied.

89. This is case is really not about hating Chiluba. It is just that the very long arm of the law has caught up with him as it can with anybody else including the State Counsel LPM if he finds himself in similar circumstances.

    What we should as Zambia is to watch how the proceeds of the Judgment will be applied.

90. Daka, here you go again(comment87), why do want to justify your comments with silly examples? No one here is interested in Jelita and Mulenga just be elaborate and precise with your comments.If you suffer from fear of inadequacy take time to go thru what you want to scribble so that straight forward scripts are put forward to this blog.You are becoming a bore, stop your cheap analysis? Are you a teacher by the way?This fora has many intellectual abilities including FTJ on comment 76.Make this the last time you are putting up stupid examples reserve them for your classroom.

91. The answer to all these is enactment of the impending constitution which see the powers of the executive cripped,The President has just too many powers which have led to abuse of such magnititude, if were to go into history KK’s abuse of office is the worst because he took Zanaco london like a personal to holder and was not answerable to anyone.
    Kayata,Lifting of FTJ’s immunity was not in good faith,LPM just wanted to win the hearts and souls of Zambians but what he was forgetting was that he was just killing the Presidency and Am sure this thing haunts him in all corners.His time will come when his dirt hands will be laid bare,because he is neither clean in his dealings nor his a saint.Vengeance has no place in Zambia,from comments 80 &81,you have correctly articulated the position what would be interesting are future developments to enforce this judgement,cos I believe this where the biggest hussle lies, we are yet to see drama in Zambia,just keep watching

92. Yeahhhhhh,The Man is back!!!!!!!$46 mil. is a jackpot.That money could have been used for various developmental projects.These culprits should bring back that money.On the other hand,looking at this from a different angle,they won’t pay back that money.They can go to bring,but they will have the comfort that they still have some money in banks.
    This issue being handled by the UK court is detrimental and a disgrace to the Zed judical system.This case should have been tackled here in Zed.FTJ is a former head of state.He may have stolen,but he deserves some respect.Now its clear that the West also no longer respects him coz we ourselves have disgraced him before them.This issue is an internal problem.
    He may have gone wrong somehow somewhat,but he also has a positive side.Lets not forget what he did for Zed.
    LPM is trying to come out clean,but he is also like FTJ.Yes,today he is the don,thinks he is clever,but when he comes out of office,we shall check him out too.

93. Judge Peter Smith saying that FTJ used to wear tailor designer clothes!Who the hell is he ?Most presidents don’t wear ordinary clothes.Does Smith want FTJ to wear to clothes from China?What clothes does Blair,or Bush,or or LPM ,or Kabila or any president wear?Why should Smith tell us what is right or wrong?When will they(Westerners) stop dictating to us what we need and don’t need?U people are now behaving just like those aol times during the slave trade and colonial times.U are dancing to their tunes.Why are u still blinded?Why can’t u see farther than ya big noses?Shame on u.FTJ is a former presdo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Taliking bout clothes-a presdo shud dress nicely.Look at the way LPM dresses…most of his shirts are either over size,or small sized.I can also have my own clothes made,with my initials on them.Am not supporting FTJ,all am saying is saying he had FTJ clothes is stupid,pathetic and immature…….He just has the taste in clothes………….
    Grow up Zedians!!!

94. Taste in clothes using stolen money.

95. Daka did you read comment 80?The hate you have for FTJ is making stop being reasonable.Why should the Judge talk about the man’s dressing?The case was about stealing $46m what he did with the money is immaterial.That is why Smith is a fool to put up all the phrases to justify his handling of the case.Indeed did he expect FTJ to wear shirts and chitenges from mulungushi textiles?Nonsense.We are yet to see where LPM gets those colorless suits, if its in chawama well and good but if its thru kick backs from Beijing will still get the truth and how much.Those who rise by the sword shall perish by the sword

96. Whatever? Chiluba put back the money where you got it from. Broad Day Light Robbery then you pretend to die? At the expense of Zambians you have been flying in out to SA. Shame on Chiluba –

97. Its hypocrisy to pretend to ‘love’ FTJ,and award him imaginery Immunity against international prosecution simply because he was former head of state.Especially if in the same breath you are looking forward to Levy’s corruption cases when he leaves power.
    It appears this ‘sovereignity’ argument only holds for FTJ, any reasons?

98. The money stolen was used to buy clothes. I was not there.

99. Its so interest to read all the comments that are been expressed. this just goes on to show how zambians are so passionate about the affairs of their country.My point of view on this matter will be that at the end of the day justice is reached.We can not refuse to prosecut the wrong just because it seem to undermine our justice system.We should infact congratulate ourselves because we have atempted to get justice.My dissaponitment is that chiluba denied us a chance to eveluate the truth and we will not know the all truth.I support the judgement and we should demand that at the end of the day we have the report of the returned resources.

100. The man, you have summed up nicely and let people like Mme Daka to get something that will change there thinking for the better.

101. Mme Daka you are brainwashed,you should be like Segolene Royale or Hilary Clinton on this blog

102. Thanks comment 101, M Daka’s comments have no direct and she talks from without.

103. The judgment was good but we are interested in getting the money back. Will the English court help us recover this money? If the answer is no then the judgment is cosmetic.

     To me, whether the judgment is good or bad will be determined by the courts ability to bring this money back to where it rightly belongs, to the poor Zambian people.

104. Seems people are so fired up about this case without really fully digesting the evidence used; The evidence used is also misapplied, or rather the judge seems very misinformed – how on earth does he conclude “Zamtrop was simply set up by FTJ & co just to siphon money”. We all know, Zamtrop was set up by KK & co; so if the prosecution can’t get that minor detail right, it speaks volumes of what a circus trial/judgement this is. Put aside, sovereignity, plunder, etc. The BIGGEST PROBLEM WE HAVE is AN INFERIORITY COMPLEX!!! It is sad that after 43yrs of independence, only things from abroad are good for us, hence medical treatment, shopping, and now court judgements, which our courts, prosecutors seem so paralytic to use the same info to effect the justice they seem to pursue with fervor. Perhaps we shud ask Nchito & co to come out in public & justify why we the tax payers are paying him so much for basically nuts!! Let him seek audience at the next Oasis events!

105. Even the old man, the one and only “King Cobra” has distanced himself from the thief. Why are you supporting a thief, my dear Kuku. They say “Ifyakulwa ubushiku fitulila kumalushi”.

106. M.Daka, FTJ is not facing any criminal charges in Zambia or anywhere in the world, and talking about his case been in London, a former or current President can not appear before any court because they are protected by the constitution, unless they violated it, of which the protection (immunity) has to be removed and by vote of parliament or congress, and thats the reason why LPM had to go to Parliament.A criminal charge is an offence where harm is involved etc. Criminal or civil, President’s by act of duty are protected by the immunity, because they are heads of state and commanders in chief.They therefore carry the state’s responsibilities,though we have seen exception like Clinton and Nixon of USA and Gorbachev of the former Soviet Union appearing before a court for different reasons. Therefore, Taylor’s case is different from Chiluba in terms of charges but similar in terms of protection of former and current President’s.Taylor was to appear before a foreign court……………….

107. Bane, chiluba stole and he has been convicted. Ever heard of the adage saying that umulandu taubola? How can a man in his right senses own 349 suits? and 209 shoes? And a civil servant for that matter? Those of you who are supporting him or feeling sorry for him are not being objective! Let us call a spade by its name.

108. Chilumba,i now totaly agree with you. The lifting of the immunity of FTJ was not done in good faith,and LPM took it as a joke and hence he was laughing in Parley. He should have been the saddest, but we saw a different picture. He should be there to protect the integrity and dignity of the Presidency, but we have a different case. The President is supposed to protect the constitution and the nation, but we have seen abuse of it.Zambia has lost pride,integrity and dignity. The biggest mistake was to remove the immunity on FTJ. The State has the powers to freeze and confiscate assets,it believes was obtained fraudulently. If FTJ’s assets were frozen, he would have challenged it, of which the only solution was to remove his immunity so he would appear before any court. When FTJ came into power, he said KK stole, and froze some of KK’s assets, but why didnt KK challenge it?Anyway,we have a weird constitution that regards a President as a god,hence FTJ was even a Prophet or whatever he was.

109. Becky or beckham whatever you call yourself, you are being naive, we are not desputing nor denying the fact that FTJ is liable what we are questioning is the desrepute our leaders have brought to our own courts.Our courts have handled complex cases like treason, so what is so special with a civil case involving seven or so persons?In simple terms Zanaco has always been there and the documents smith used are still there, so what logic is there to use an Englishman sit over a simple case?Infriority complex and greedy by LPM and foolishness by his advisors.
     Unless you are so daft Beky to see that this case is more on vengeance than anything else.

110. Chiluba, you are a thief justified by the courts of law. It does not matter wither you accept judgement or not.Please pay back the 85% you stole from zambian people

111. Ms Daka… You hate FTJ. No one is disputing that goverment funds where used inappropriatelly and we all agree that such acts should be prosecuted regardless of who was involved. Our Argument is that a wrong court was used to prosecute the case. The second thing Mr Smith’s pronouncement has reduced the current court proceedings in Zambia a joke. No judge can now say what ever the out come will be will not be influenced by Smiths judgement. Infact they should drop the criminal charges and focus on trying to recover the stollen money. My sister we are in a state of confusion right now. yesturday Mlongoti asked FTJ to register is grivances with the hight court. The high court did not pass the judgement. The high court can not enforce Mr Smiths judgement. What you are looking at here is another 5 years for the Nchito’s prove that the high court does not enforce judgements passed by foreign courts. In the Zambian Legal framework. You can hire foreign investigators to be continued…

112. But you can not hire a court and a judge. The only court that can overide a national cour is the international court of justice and it does not deal with alleged plunder.

113. The people in support of the Judgment like myself do not hate FJT.For example, the people’s newspaper, the respectable Post Newspaper has hailed the Judgment; Micheal Chilufya Sata has supported the Judgment. Respectable NGOs like TIZ is in favour of the Judgment. LAZ a respectable law association gave a legal opinion principally supporting the London jurisdiction. The Women for Change has supported the Judgment and many more. No body can tell me that these institutions and persons I have mentioned hate FJT. So we say we support the Judgment it does not mean that we hate FJT. Even the people who are denouncing the Judgment by using any fail language they can master can not be said to be FJT’s spin doctors or bootlickers. We should remove personalities in this debate. Each side should expound their points freely.

     Kayata, FJT, is still facing criminal charges before Honourable Chinyama in the Subordinate Court. The matter was adjourned due to his pending medical revie

114. M Daka, I sure you are sick. Check your thinking level. How come the court in London didnt take FTJ illness into consideration? Mme Daka, oh please stop making useless comments.

115. My dear Ba Joze. How well informed are you? FJT told the court in Lusaka through his lawyers that he was sick and needed to go to South Africa. He refused to recognise the London court and thus never explained his sickness before it. Court do not regard hearsay. The London court could therefore not considered his sickness. So, my dear Ba Joze, who should check her/his thinking between me and you.

     You see Joze, I restrained as a lady to answer back in this way but I will do it. Your lumpenising shows that you have a very shallow thinking capacity. I know you are not pleased with the Judgment at hand. If you support you view point, do not think that you will let other people think like you by being vulgur. Besides your insults will not intimidate me. It just shows that my views are “hitting you hard” and you wish that I should stop propounding them. If indeed they are “useless”, you should have ignored them.

116. Another eminent person. A man of the people. The Reverend Father Peter Henriot has hailed Judge Smith’s judgment. I do not think by doing so,like I have done, the Reverend Father hates FJT. Not at all. For those who care, they can read Father Henriot’s column entitled “legal, moral and political issues” in Post Newspaper of Monday, 7th May, 2007.

117. Its amazing that Ms Daka up to now you dont understand the implications of a foreign court and Judge presiding over Zambian cases yet we have 4 tiers of courts. Local, Megistrate, high court and supreme court. we have the depth and the capacity to deal with these cases. Wether Sata of the so called “Reverand Father” supports its irrelevant. and by the way is he a Reverand or a Father (Vika).

118. Thank you Ba Joze…. Paparazzi and Ms Daka are blinded by their hatred. Hence they have failed to be rational.

119. M.Daka, i would like to know what criminal charges FTJ is facing ?

120. SAGE my brother……. The International Court of Justice is a court that deals with disputes between 2 states. There is no dispute between 2 states for them to be involved here.My brother’s…SAGE,BaJoze,Anonymous etc,this is a discussion forum or blog which ever you may call it,and you have not given valid points as to why FTJ should not appear before the London court,except for the “Ba Zungu” issue etc.M.Daka has given you examples and valid points, but you all have failed to put your arguments across. You remind me of Christon Tembo,who had no points but to threaten his opposing opponents. Been realistical helps and analyse things as they stand. FTJ lost his immunity,so what basis has he got not to appear before a foreign court. Stop bullying M.Daka and those people with opposing views, in law you have to put your argument across like the way Chilumba argues his points, with facts and valid examples. Be convincing.Look at things the way they are and stand.

121. Anonymous….your comments at 101.Remember that it is better to be brainwashed than have no brains at all. S.Royale and H.Clinton are intelligent ladies,and they are making positive changes in France and USA. Democracy and development is about debate and not threats. If you are challenged, do not threaten.
     Anonymous, you too are talking from without.look at your comment 67,FTJ’s cases were abuse of the London Zamtrop account etc,which are in London,so the “sin”as you refer it was in london, not zambia

122. Honourable ladies and gentlemen,this is a democratic dispensation of facts and ideas, let us not resort to belittling one another, what is being said here one day will be the conerstone of our ‘new Zambia’, let us be objective and appreciate one’s contributions however small.Indirectly its teaching us new things interms of exposure and understanding of things from micro to macro,the learned and the informed both likewise.Its interesting and I for one has learnt quite alot from vulgar to great ideas.
     One Zambia One Nation, Ba Jose spare me, Am actually missing one person ‘Mudala wafimofimo’

123. Ba Kayata there is is no provision in our constitution that states that a zambian of any stature should be refered to a foreign country for legal prosecution in the event that our local prosecutors are inept. Point of correction the international court of justice does not only deal with disputes between 2 countries. It also deals with crimes against humanity. comming to Kafupi. The local legal framework has no provision to that effect. If the british government wanted to prosecute FTJ because he used their country and banks to lounder money. They should have just charged him for money loundering. The plunder issue is an internal affair, the Brits have nothing to do with it. Its nothing to do with how we feal , the judicial framework operates on precedence. If we can handle Treason cases we can handle plunder. Before you know it our divorce cases will be presided over by Judge Smith.

124. Kayata, I can not remember the specific criminal charges FJT is facing. However the charges came as a result of the removal of his immunity. You will recall he even surrendered his passport to the court. I don’t think a nolle was entered on those criminal charges. Infact in his press statement just before the London Judgment was delivered, he said that the judgment will prejudice his criminal case in Zambia. If the case comes up I will tell you on his cite.

     Sage,you mighty not agree and no one can force you to so, but the justification of the London jurisdiction have been ably pointed out. I have done so before and I will not belabour the point. You may read the Judgment, the Post Editorials, Reverend Father Henriot’s column. Even the exparts at LAZ gave that justification. legally, the London issue is settled.

     What I was saying at 115 was that it is not true to say that everyone who supports the judgment hates FJT. If you have a contrary opinion, you are entitled to that.

125. SAGE,Mme Daka , we have all rested our debate with exhaustive illustrations,thoughts and analyses,and shall continue to stick by our opinions ,may I apeal that come reinforcement/execution of Smith Judgement on FTJ, can we regroup and review our much deliberated motion of jurisdiction and precendence.This will be an interesting case to follow to the end.Iam reteirating my earlier argument that Smith had erred to agree to preside over this case and what will unfold at a later date will awaken the entire Zambia from slumber.For FTJ,KK,LPM please read Psalms 31.

126. Great Psalm. Surely the Lord is good to Israel. He is our hope and trust in times of trouble. I also pray that God may heal our land and give us leaders with the fear of the Lord. I also concur with one of the observers who asked if our leaders ever ask God for guidance daily. Solomon asked for wisdom to lead God’s people Israel and it is only way forward. With God’s wisdom our country will change direction.

127. Ba SAGE, first,no one was refered to a foreign court, charges were just brought up in a foreign court,and secondly,our local prosecutors are not inept,they are lazy. Shansonga ran away with the excuse of getting evidence from where the crime occured, that when it was decided to bring up those charges in that court. There was no reference. Why did the DPP drop Bulaya’s case in the first place, then out of public outcry,it resurfaced.
     On your point of correction, the ICJ deals with disputes involving 2 states in regards to humanity, fraud, land, etc.Therefore crime on humanity is one of the issues they look at. Lastly, there was no money laundering involved in FTJ’s case,what was involved was abuse of financial resources.

128. Thanks every body Ms Daka… Why is Mulongoti refering FTJ to present his grivances to the high court. why not ask him to appeal through the london court. The whole thing is fluid and looks like its done in bad faith. However, i have sited judicial examples and i still believe you can can not pass judgement in a civil case before disposing off the criminal case. And by the way the criminal case is about plunder as well the only difference is the criminal case seeks to imprison while the civil case seeks to indemnfy the plentiff.

129. Ba Kayata, if no one refered FTJ to the London court you are telling me that Judge smith just took it upon himself to prosecute a former colony’s ex presidente?

130. M.Daka, when you remember, i would be happy to know the criminal charges? But you could be right,
     “Zambia’s parliament voted unanimously to lift ex-President Frederick Chiluba’s immunity from prosecution. A criminal investigation will now open into those said to have benefited corruptly from his ten years in power, and if the courts uphold parliament’s vote”.
     However, no criminal charge has been brought forward.

131. Ba SAGE, this was tailor made type of pursuit, it would have made sense to see Smith’s whole judgement detail like he did in Vulture fund than just the executive summary Smith gave.This case has confused many including Mulongoti who end up refering FTJ to high court which never executed the judgement,The whole thing is filthy and stinking hypocrisy in the name of corruption fight.The same cases Smith presided over are the same cases sited over, when LPM removed FTJ’s immunity.The criminal cases ones must be very trivial,things like stealing of the 72′ tv from state house etc,buying Silwamba and Malambo hses using state slash funds etc.
     TO me this Smith case lacks substance and if people are not careful, they will regret this move.Its a total shame,will just bring disunity,hate,rivalry etc

132. Ba Kayata …. What you are talking about happened 6 years ago. And FTJ was charge with theft by pablic servant which is a criminal case aparently due to luck of evidence the about he is charge for stealing is $488,000.00 thats why i’m saying our investigators are inept. if all they could trace is $488,000 where did Judge Smith get the $46M?

133. Ba SAGE, there was no a refering, the Government sued FTJ and his accomplice’s in that court.
     To refer is to hand over or submit for information, consideration, decision. But FTJ and group were sued in the london court’s of which the decision would have been in their favour or not.

134. Kayata somehow things got mixed up, at what point did the case proceed to London? And what cases are always at Chikwa courts? Chinyama is probing FTJ for stealing $500,000 and Smith in his judgement has attributed the same figure for suits so now isnt there a duplication of things?He disallows $600,000 and then says XFC owes $25m just like FTJ so where is the $21m coming from.I understand the confusion SAGE is trying to clarify.
     These courts will end up doing one and the same thing

135. Chilumba and SAGE, i agree with you. FTJ’s lawyers once said there is a duplication of charges against FTJ. SAGE has describes it as been inept, but it is laziness too. Theft indeed is a criminal offence. However, Chilumba as you have mentioned things have been mixed up, things done in desperation end up with desperate actions.

136. If I remember correctly the man was charged with 169 counts of theft cases which were later squashed to 23.And it is against this back drop that may be the london issue came in and was hastily rushed without critically reviewing what the the outcomes will be.Ideally a civil case must not precede a criminal case, as it is things in Zambia are stalled.Its the quantum of cases that excited MP’s to vote in favour of lifting FTJ’s immunity.Some of the Characters in parliament did not even understand what that meant , all LPM did was mental gymastics to win their votes, am sure those who are focused have regretted the move, cos the presidency is dead its not something you can respect anymore.Taylor still enjoys his immunity, Mluzi still enjoys his immunity,Thaskin of Thailand still enjoys immunity and is on shooping spree in london by Man city,Its just Zambia where people have marginalised the Head of state.We are equal and must be equal in mutual respect secured by law.

137. Chilumba,Love and Poverty do not mix,worse is it more pronounce in Zambia and those 150 fools in Parliament do not have any feelings for the public. Hence we have never even seeing an MMD MP oppose a bill,even if it is right or wrong. If an opposition MP supports a bill of the govt, we will be hearing of some defection. In Namibia,if an MP resigns from the party, there is no by-election and the seat is retained by the party. All in all,KK, FTJ and LPM are using Parley for rubber stamping, and it is to this effect that abuse of office will never stop. Lets put more powers in the MP’s so, they would be able to impreach a President if he does anything wrong or oppose if silly bills are presented in the house.

138. Kayata you are right, until when we get the right persons for the roles will sanity ever return to Parley.When there is a sensitive bill coming some one always calls for a meeting somewhere along independence avenue just to lobby for the chaps to oppose it, we are very backwards and will continue to do so till we reach the walls.Change management is what Zambia needs today.Some of these MPs,take it as one way of coming to the capital,they barely understand what their roles are , the electorate cant even understand the constitution cos even the person representing them has no faintest clue whatsoever,how can a country with 11m be represented by 12,000 in the designing of the document that will bind them?Isnt this a scandal on the part of the leaders that be? Things have just fallen apart and the centre is failing to hold them together. There is 0gm/s2 in Zambia everything is floating anywhere they feel like floating.

139. 136, The head of state is NOT some kind of a god. We cant compare ourselves to malawi, Thailand, liberia etc. Zambians should be proud to have done the right thing; remove the Immunity.We have been vindicated, by the conviction.
     Shame on Chiluba for stealing. long live smith for geting to the truth promptly.
     Smith did his duty very well. remember he never solicited to handle task force cases, on the contrary its the task force that sued in london and the learned guy was just assigned to the case. Its NOT wrong to be English or white or both, just like any other race.

140. F. Kafula,u are back with ya broken English.Are u still in form 2(Grade 9),to be making such grammatical errors?Umusebanya kwena!!!!!!!!!!!!!

141. Anonymous(67),are your analytic skills so shallow?That 21 yr ola woman was arrested in Malaysia and she will be tried there.If FTJ was arrested in Uk,he cud have been tried there!He is here in Zed,so it’s just right that his ground is here.B4 u write anything,pls,ask other people to read ya comment and ask them whether or not it can be consider as an intelleactual point of view.

142. Kataya, the vice president of LAZ, Mr Stephen Lungu has stated that Chiluba is still facing criminal proceedings in the subordinate court. These are the criminal charges I referred to. Read today’s leas story in the Post.

143. Anonymous(67),are your analytic skills so shallow?That 21 yr old woman was arrested in Malaysia and she will betried there.If FTJ was arrested in Uk,he cud have been tried there!He is here in Zed,so it’s just right that his ground is here.B4 u write anything,pls,ask other people to read ya comment and ask them whether or not it can be considered as an intelleactual point of view.

144. The man you are so cheap and you do not belong here because you can not make sense and paticipate positively. So go back to what you know best since you never grduated out of elementary.Bring your ideas instead of your petty ego.By the way this is a world wide web you need to speek the language that reflect the pipo of zambia.I am ashamed of you.

145. F Kafula, have you finished ‘ukufula amasembe?’you form 3s, are still thinking about national services and banking on free rations from KK. F Masembe just disappear again and go in the forest to look for ‘imipini’.

146. Daka,I saw the bankruptcy issue coming in, see comment 31.So Smith will be the receiver,its unimagineable sequence of events.All the best.

147. I appreciate the judgement of smith, but what is the cost of legal services incurred by LPM’s government on Chiluba plunder? This is important because it financially imprudent to chase a debt of US$41 Million while the cost of legal services is US$40 999 999.99

148. Truly Zambian, depending on who ever the receiver might be everyone will be getting a cut on whatever assets they sell at some agreed rate.So in addition to the vulture fund legal costs which were pegged at £1.7m ,part of it UK govt is paying there is this civil case whose costs we dont know and then the receiver manager costs.The question is does FTJ have assets to cover this liability?Its very possible the $46m might be or not be there.

149. M.Daka…..comment 142, i agree with you, FTJ is facing criminal charges. To be honest, this case has been mixed up with civil and criminal cases. Theft is a criminal offence, and thats the word i was missing.
     Chilumba,Truly zambian…comment 146 and 147, in any court, if you are charged with an offence and you were made to pay the cost’s.Who is the receiver? I believe in implementing justice, if it costs ZMK 5,000 to catch a thief who stole ZMK 1, that thief must be caught at all costs.

150. Kayata, Smith didnot include costs,I guess UK is taking care of that, but as regards the issue of bankruptcy, a receiver manager will be appointed to care of the debts,usually these are lawyers or accountants and the dictate their own administration costs very different from the legal costs.That is why today lwayers in Zambia have become rich over nite from such charges.

151. You ladies & gentlemen,who have not sinned before should throw his stones at FJT.We all have sinned one or other.So pls dont be a companion of words throwing to FJT.Remember to err is human.So you ladies & gentlemen of the panel spare our Kafupi guy he has sufferred enough, both physical, syphrogical and spiriual. Forgive him for he did know what he was doing. We all need to be forgiven one way or another, but the condition is for us to forgiv others.Why is that there so much hate in people mind? Pray all of u 1-148 so that God give u peace in ur hearts. FTJ stole and I am sure he has regreted, so forgive him,because 1 time u will also need forgiveness,especial u Daka chap.Because If we dont forgive one another, this trend of hating will not finish,it will go on from one generations to next.Remember LPM is also steal ur money in the name medical.U never know, may be the next President will be a relative of FJT and he will want 2 revenge by removing immunity fm LPM.PEACE & LOVE 2 U ALL.

152. AM , please see Chilumba’s quotation of Psalms 31 for all to read, its an interesting script from the bible comment 126.AM man/woman of God please encourage Ba Joze to read the bible as well.He needs divine intervention.Jesus said love your neighbor as you love yourself.But ba Joze is behaving like LPM who has neither love nor peace in his heart.Daka also read that script your unjustifiable hate for FTJ is immernse,to forgive is Godly but to hate is ungodly,

153. AM if your family members and neigbours are okey then forgive ka-chiluba not to forgive kena .You seem to be so dumb.you non appreciating being.

     Viva london court.

154. gk,you are so backward ,you mean you cant pick anything from AM’s comment.FTJ did good things and deserves forgiveness.Zambia is a christian nation not a nation for sadists like you.Go hang yourself like Judas Escariot.You claim to be abroad but your thinking is that of a pigyme of DRC forests.Just shut your big mouth if you dont believe in forgiveness

155. gk call me what u want but forgiveness is godly and I want to remain that. By the way I forgive u for calling dumb. I pray for peace to come in your heart.

156. AM, gk is just cleaning old people abroad and thinks that is a good thing,you will come back to zambia you will sleep in a tree.SO start being zambian and wash away your foolishly acquired abroad status.You are just suffering there in diaspora you cant even afford a ticket back home.AM forgive this pagan, if it was in Iraq ,this chap was going to be gassed.

157. Anonymous remain what you are and where you are.You dont understand anything about peoples suffering.You were the people that were benefitng from short man.recriuting yor fellow kaponyas and earning 50000 kwacha and chibuku.

     Let me tell you bra AM forgiveness starts with one being Ka chiluba should go on platform and really say sorry to all Zambians and return the Stolen money THEN can we start talking about forgiveness.Dont be prejudice.We are all Christians and we are what we are because of God ALLMIGHTY.

158. gk you are half baked on bible matters,how do you classfy the incident where Jesus told those chaps who wanted to stone the woman caught committing adultery?She never went to the paltform to say sorry but Jesus saw it fit to protect her and forgave her sins.The same with FTJ,those who have human feelings like AM has articulated above you can forgive before FTJ says sorry.He has suffered enough both mentally, spiritual and physical, the man is weak, if he dies the guilt shall be yours,gk,LPM and Mulongoti

159. Thks brother kuku, let us forgive this pagan, for he does know not what he doing. Let us emurated Jesus,who forgives even when it pains. For sure FTJ has suffered enough. gk, its pipo like u who appreciate and say good things when one dies, even if one was evil.

160. MS Daka we know that chiluba is still facing criminal charges in a the Zambian Courts. But the out come of the criminal case has been pre determind by the judgement passed by smith. The question here is are interested in justice or are we interested in money. If we are interested in justice then the criminal charges should be dropped because there is no way FTJ will recieved a free trial. this is what we call a Miscarriage of justice.But if all we are interested in is money. Since the smith passed they judgement the government can go ahead and free FTJ’s assets in UK remember that judgement can not hold water in Zambia and elsewhare. The bottom line is the criminal case proceedings in the Zambian courts have become a formality. Rather than keep wasting money on inept prosecutors just drop the charges.

161. Kuku,gk,AM and anonymouse you guys have become too personal. The purpose of this blog is to exchange ideas and views intellectually. Let us not loose focus on the big picture here guys. We may agree to disagree but lets not get too personal.

162. Once upon a time corruption was “foreign” to Zambia. We heard about it in one of neighbours where it was extremely rampart and practiced openly. We had isolated cases but current levels demand prudent measures. Those measures should not be seen to be for selected few. Mr. Sakala is the weakest link that I feel is being punished twice for the “same case!” In the U.S. they call this double jeopardy. Before sending someone to jail the prosecution should have done a thorough job instead of sentencing someone repeatedly while some sacred cows continue to be spared. Hunger, poor enumerations, mismanagement and poor policy are among the vices that lead to corruption. Although we cannot justify or condone this practice I have a strong feeling government’s myopic policies have fuelled this cancer. I doubt if the caliber of our MPs let alone ministers has developmental plans or see the implications of letting a foreign court have jurisdiction over your former president. The fight against corruption without addressing poverty will always be cosmetic unless government begins to empower Zambians with living wages and they become co-owners of their wealth, Zambia Sugar, Chilanga Cement and all those mines that have been taken away from them.

163. By the way, how long or how quick does a country that desperately needs financial resources to develop itself continue to sit on its “gold mine” of its discovered oil riches? 5 years? 10 years? Someone help me!

164. My fellow Zambian, if at all you are all zambians. I have read some of you have good argumets others fallacies.Anyhow looking at the issue fo Chiluba i wouldnt say it was a fair jugedment neither would i say it wasnt fair.One thing for sure having a court ran in a different country especially the west, you wouldnt expect chiluba to win.And am not saying he must win.The judgement has to be prejudiced becuase nothing good would come from africa.Thats what they have in there minds.It would make much sense if the zambian courts are the ones that made the judgedment as it would even carry much weight.The only thing here is that the zambian government did is to show that zambia is not competente to handle its own cases.The other thing is i think the government feared that chiluba would win the cases. So they had to look for a way to have chiluba pay whether he wanted or not.There many things that happen when a leader is in power and doesnt see.Mwanawasa will be found with cases too.

165. few examples of how other countries did their cases. One country i once studied in,in africa a president of that country(well known former president, becuase of the respect people have for him i wont mention his name-those who know no worries)sold a national park.what did the government do they solved the issue internally and did not have to announce it to the whole world that thats what happened.Many people dont even know about it.Then to the west,when Bill clinton had left his presidency it was later found out that he signed an amount that was to go to him as if he was still president.They didnt have to continue to announce to the world what happened.They solved it themselves and did not mention that case ever.How many years have we been annoucing about chiluba to the world?
     why go to uk are we still colonised by britain.may be we still are?evidence can be brought to zambia.witness’s &paper work
     something to think about when we are looking at chiluba’s case & cases what is justice?

166. Trigo, now you are behaving like some of the witnesses that appeared b4 Smith, he deemed their evidence irrelevant, becoz of the cloak of secrecy, so your lack of mentioning this secret country of yours makes your point very mute.

     I ‘ve to agree with The Sage,our courts now have a serious dilemma, how do they preside over a case that has been ever so predetermined? Will the defendants now want to appear whilst, either the govt & foreign courts are breathin down their necks trying to recover this money? Or will they simply be declared bankrupt & THAT WILL BE THE END OF THIS EXCITING EPISODE? What an anticlimax!! & what a waste of resource, & NOT TO MENTION – WHAT A WASTED CIRCUS FOR THE ZAMBIAN PEOPLE!!

167. Guys look at how foolish Lungu sounds in the post stating that you dont need to to prove beyond any reasonable doubt in a civil case. What law school did this fool attend. And it a civil case is that simple to determine why did we even involve Smith. In his statement he is insinuating that evidence is not important to determine a civil case. Ba Kayata now you see why i’m calling these people Inept.Stephen is the LAZ whatever and he can talk like that…. Probably LPM opted to go to UK courts because he know how inept these guys are.

168. Remember, once FTJ is declared bankrupt, it will almost trigger a constitutional crisis – becoz when declared, one can’t earn or receive money, so the clause that makes it imperative to maintain a past president, will conflict with bankruptcy law & again make a mockery of this whole exercise, if that’s the case, then the AGZ will have made afundamental error of judgement in persuing this case only to cost us further millions – contrary to what one contributor said – “doesn’t matter how much it costs to get to the truth” – true if we were that rich, but alas no. AGZ’s duty is to ensure that he prosecutes value for money and reasonable chance of positive outcome; Yes it was in public interest, but look @ the yield of the locally prosecuted cases, apart from poor Sakala, & Musonda and Bulaya who are “walking”, there is little to write home about! The deterrent that everyone seems to harp about, i very much doubt will sink soon in any of our current crop of politicians.

169. My dear SAGE, why are you arguing with legal exparts like Mr. Lungu. He has not said that you do not need any evidence in a civil case. I have read his comments in the Post (09/05/07). What he said was that in a civil case the burden of proof is on a balance of probabilities. I believe he meant that burden is lower than that required in a criminal case which is beyond reasonable doubt. There is no need to call him inept.

170. My Bro SAGE…… it is true these guys are inept or incompetent. Actually they are lazy and lack credibility. First, i have never trusted a lawyer, for they don’t always know what they talk about,and they use law terms to confuse people. Anyway, look at the DPP who first declared a “nolle” on Bulaya, but out of public outcry, the case resurfaced and Bulaya was charged. Where did all the evidence that they didn’t have come from for them to manage to prosecute Bulaya again. My dear Daka… if these lawyers can’t be described as been inept, what term can we use to descibe them. They have proved to be incompetent and without skills, or they would have finalised the cases in 6 months than 6 years. They have a combination of been inept and laziness.

171. Yesterday 9th was my first day to log on this site and my first notice was PIPO like anonymous,kuku who are so hypocritical and non understanding of situations.They are so delusioned that their thoughts have been taken over by the poverty left behind by their short uncle,such that their senses of reasoning have been taken over by halucinations.Their analysing of issues is only directed at individuals who are trying their efforts to bring to book pipo like Ka chiluba.Its not my privelage to start defending myself on what Iam doing here or how comfortable Iam or civilised as compared to you.But I can read in between lines and looking at the time you log on to start barking on this site,that you are non productive,without tertiary and only wasting the efforts of lusaka times and other economical revolusionists.
     As for AM I appreciate his opinion and look forward to his contributions.
     You 2 go back and see what you can do for your day.

172. It is amazing how Hefty Jay (FTJ) / FJT Chiluba can think that Zambians are foolish. Well, listening to his press conference this morning only confirms one thing… The Short-man has no thread of remorse about his blantant theft.

     Instead of logically defending himself itemising issues as read out by Judge Smith, he kept on picking on various topics not even related to the case.

     Surprisingly, the man can not see that Britain is trying to help every geniune ZAMBIAN recover what once belonged to them.

     Furthermore, we all know that Britain has its own issues much bigger than Hefty Jay to worry about.

     I hope GOD prevails and makes this man understand what it means for once to apologise.

173. When all is said and done.All we look forward to as ordinary citizens of this country is for the money which was diverted for private use. To be returned to Zambia.And that never again will people in positions of leadership abuse public resources with impunity.

     The day of reckoning has indeed arrived for Chiluba

174. The Smith Court sat in Zambia and Chiluba was invited to come appear and defend himself but he declined. Me I have never heard someone saying ‘I refuse to recognise a ruling of a court of law”. Chiluba must be getting a lot of wrong advise from those chongololo lawyers of his. This time its total war tate, we want our money back, namalyanga tuwe, ukaiseleze!

175. Ha ha! Is it true Chi Mama Regina Mwanza was busy “ridding” ka Chiluba and in the process nearly knocked dearlife out of his diminutive Katangese body? This stealing habit of his, stealing a young wife who almost got him killed in bed. No wonder Mr. Mwanza remarked that Chiluba aza sweater chibe paka paka kuli “black maria” ya Regina.

176. I wish to commend judge smith for the job well done, chiluba and his fellow convicts should pay back our money, we entrusted them with leadership but they disapointed us.Zambia lets ensure that the judgment by judge smith is upheld.We want the pepetrators of corruption who are jeopadising the welfare of our economy to learn from this.Thank you country men and women.

177. No worries if FTJ does not recognise the London Judgement, the judgement itself will recofnise him and exert it’s full weight on his heart disease ravaged body. Winangu ka, zalila misozi pakapaka!

178. #25 Ba theresa,i think you need to understand more about law before you can sympathise with your uncle FRED.The london court passed the judgement because those corrupt transactions he was chaged with took place within the jurisdiction of the london court.In law a person can only be tried within the jurisdiction when the alleged offence was committed.Moreover, most of the finnances were laundered and syphoned to london which could have made it difficult for the Zambian court to preside over the case.Thus its a question of the jurisdiction within which an offence is committed that matters.

179. dfponclmr ixvurhado uwdebyjx hcbkolry wvszqeut owpecyhtk eumldb

180. pray for our leaders in africa ask for wisdom to rule our nations in the fear of the God of israel.

181. If leaders continue ruling our nations in the fear of god of israel, they will continue to hoard their loots. Chiluba proved just that. He was a served born again christian who was ruling in the fear of god of israel. Don’t africans, or particularly, Zambians, have their own God? If they ask for wisdom to rule our nations in the fear of our own God, not god of israel, they will fear to loot from among their own sons and doughters.

182. as far as we are cocerned, the man is guilty, he stole from us and so he should pay the price, if the law is not storng enough, and i believe it is, to sought him out, then someone else will, i assure you.i mean think about it, the many who have not only lost there jobs but also there lives, hmmmmmmmmmm, surely theres someone out there whos gone completely phycho over this, brother man, the remnants of the many dead he left behind frown in the dark.

183. Hello, i believe that i saw you visited my website so i got here to go back the prefer?.I’m trying to to find things to improve my website!I assume its ok to make use of some of your ideas!!

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