A veteran politician in Mufulira has urged the two former heads of state to respect each other and stop using the media to settle their old scores.
Former United National Independence Party (UNIP) Copperbelt Provincial Chairperson,
Levy Mwasa, said it is embarrassing for the former presidents, Dr. Kenneth Kaunda and Dr. Fredrick Chiluba to exchange unpalatable words in the press.
Mr. Mwansa said this in a statement to ZANIS today, saying accusing each other as
having stolen state funds in public is being irresponsible and childish, considering that both were at one time entrusted to run the affairs of the nation.
The politician stated that the sour relationship between the two former heads of state is a danger to the peace and stability of the country as their conduct undermines the office the president.
Mr. Mwansa said the former presidents should set very high standards on how they
should related to each other so that future presidents will build on the same experience.
He advised Dr. Chiluba to stop playing political tactics and not to hide in Dr. Kaunda’s past record because when he was the republican president he brought in Scotland Yard to probe the first president and his name was cleared.
He said in the best interest of the nation Dr. Chiluba should swallow his pride and apologise publicly.
He noted that it is not good for Dr. Chiluba to dwell on the past and accuse Dr. Kaunda that he stole money just because he has been accused of fraud.
Lately the two former heads of state have been exchanging words in the press following the recent judgment by the London court in which Dr. Chiluba has been found liable.
Good counsel Mr. Mwansa.
Greetings,
How in a modern world can one behave in the way FTJ is behaving? This man has no respect for anything or anyone. Tradition, law, other people and least of all himself, all mean nothing to him.
To stand and illigitimise a whole jurisdictional process which he once worked in liason with is very iresponsible. The law has taken it’s course atleast in as far as it’s wretten now, We expect him to abide by the judgement passed or take the various legal channels available to him in appeal.
Trying to win this case or prove innocence in the court of public oppinion by dragging other people EG KK into scrutiny will not work. In as far as KK responding to such careless statements made by a desperate man is concerned there is no need. Time and history have already shown the truth. The only why to be objective is to go by what the evidence has proved.”Innocent until proven guilty”.
loadist out!
KK dragged himself in the FTJ mess when he openly comented on the Judgement. Mr Mwansa is right, no arguments about his advise. My Bro Loadist, KK hates FTJ with a passion. The man is consumed with hate that he can’t pass an opportunity to attack FTJ. I like people like Sadanis he said “its dishornarable to hit a man when he is down”. FTJ is down and out leave the little man alone. KK wants to parade himself as good man. I know people have short memories. Remember you couldnt travel from Lusaka to Kabwe without a Reg. You couldnt buy soap without Rupia Banda and the UNIP vigilantes whipping you. FTJ brought awareness and freedom of speech. Now we can even call LPM a “cabage” and still see another day. Make no mistake, along the way FTJ goofed big time. But KK is not worth to unty FTJ’s shoes. The man was evil to the core. Like i said earlier the old man should just stay home and enjoy our genorosity but he shouldnt push it. Not at any point should he think we have forgotten.
Respectability is earned by how one conducts themself in public, former president or otherwise. It’s all down to individual judgement. There is the common saying,”Don’t argue with a fool, becoz you’ll also look like one!”
Today is 22nd/5/07 i.e. a good 18 days since Smith made his judgement, minus 4 days for weekends, comes down to 14 working days – WE NEED TO KNOW WHAT GOVT HAS NOW DONE TO IMPLEMENT THIS JUDGEMENT, not just having LPM harking about it being a good judgement.
NOW this, a very separate issue, am trying to get intouch with LUSAKA TIMES, reasons being:
1] Their “About us” page is totally blank with no link to communicate.
2] I would like to make a request to them, is it possible for them to add a link to their site enabling us to start “Strings” on topics of common interest, becoz at the moment we are very limited to going with the News-story blogs. Of course, if blogs were deemed inappropriate or offensive, these could always be pulled off the site.
It is true that “Ubufumu bu chindika ubwine” This is a wise Bemba saying ti wish an sure that FTJ and KK know very well. Respect breads respects.The two ex.Presidents including LPM are always calling each other names.May we give each other respect so that even the positions that we hold can give us respect.
Dont you think it would be aparthy for a former president not to comment on a landmark and precedence setting judgement such as the one handed down on FTJ. It was well within the functions of a statesman for KK to make public his feelings on the issue because judgement had been passed, so he as not interfering or making unwaranted acussations as compared to FTJ who spoke with no facts nor evidence.
SAGE I greatly respect your contribution in as far as KK’s overall human rights record goes but this does not take away from the fact that we have an Ex President that was charged and subsequently convicted of finincial misconduct.
Remember there are no sacred cows in politics. This is not to say that all politicians are corrupt, sometimes it’s just the policies they enforce that leave thier perfomance wanting. KK had his own failings so did FTJ and soon we shall find some in LPM, they are all only human after all. However only one has this far been convicted.
Loadist out!
The pre1991 multi-party movement was not started by Chiluba. No. Rather common Zambians, pressure groups and disaffected recycled politicians did. FTJ was a late comer. He was just invited at some point. He was not privy to what came to be known as the first ‘Garden House Hotel Meeting’ which gave impetus to this movement. Neither was he the one who coined the saying ‘the hour has come’. Aka and group did.
So I get very worried when people say that FTJ brought democracy to Zambia. No the Zambians themselves did. FTJ was just given their terms of reference. He had no choice. He was obliged. That’s why he had the best goodwill of any president that has served during the first five years of his term. The fact being that people were fed up with KK’s rule. Then he realised how ‘sweet power is’. He then tinkered with the supreme law to perpetuate his stay. The rest of the story is plain to everyone.
KK’s contribution is not an ‘arm-pit’ affair either. He gave Zambia its first ever university. He built at least a secondary school in each district (before FTJ increased the number but not the schools). He put Zambians in school for free all the way to our beloved UNZA (the pride of Zambia but which FTJs MMD effectively destroyed).
KK had his own shortcomings. But one has to evaluate them on the basis of the politics of the day. It’s unimaginable that in the 60s, 70s and 80s that one party socialist inclined states prevailed all over Africa. The only exceptions being for Apartheid in RSA and military dictatorship here and there and democracy in Botswana.
The point I’m making being KK was a product of the ideologies of the time – including its excesses and otherwise.
But if you ask me, buses (FTJ) or education (KK), I’ll opt for the latter. It works! Its what will take Zambia forward. Its one of the mellenium goals! Its what will ‘read’ Zambians out of poverty, I dare say!
OOPS,Lets now focus on the future and stop talking about the formal National leaders.
Progress is all about KUSOSOLO/KUTANSHI and not always about the past.
This syndrome has rocked Zambia so seriously.
Why don’t we talk about sanity for the future?
Why don’t we talk about making Chongwe a modern city?
Why not talk about renovating structures which makes lusaka look like a city built in 250 BC ?
Why not talk about bringing water to UTH and eployment issues?
Why not talk about changing the so called Lusaka inter’ Airport from a farm to an Airport with international standards?
Why not talk about emproving the rail system?
We are bound to remain in the past as long as we continue to concentrate on the past.
Lets use history as a lesson,and not as a weapon.
OOOOPS..
MAY THE LORD GOD SAVE THE …..ZAMBIA
KK did nothing wrong on commenting on FTJ. Judgement was passed and KK like every one else had the right to comment on it.
The problem is with Kafupi,he is just ranting any how.He is the one without respect for our elderly statesman. He has no respect for the law,no respect for other people’s marriages,he has no respect for all the Zambians he did wrong.KK merely made a comment on a passed judgement so the was no need for FTJ to make noise about it , he is Guilty
(11#) Chimwemwe
You have said it the way it is.
We know that Kafupi has the gift of the garb… But his actions are totally devoid of a man who deserves
respect. Instead of earning it like KK he tried to buy it.
Let Kafupi reserve his words and energy for court
Chiluba is a shameless man who is pointing finger`s
@ k k to dievert attention the oldest trick,we have
very short memories just like his height he once
imprisoned k k that man should just be lucky that
levy is actually taking his time by following the
law,unlike what he did.
Elicat, how old are you? Not all Zambians were born yesterday. In case you dont know KK imprisoned a lot of pipo without any good reason including Chiluba himself. So what’s so special about KK that he can not be imprisoned by another person. Lets talk from an informed position. Some pipo are just ranting like the same KK who will never accept that he made some mistakes just like Chiluba did and both of course have their own positive aspects. Dont expect Chiluba to praise the old man if he starts the insults. This forum should be used to debate issues intellectually from a well informed position and not just making wild comments.
Kafupi is behaving like a child that stole sweets and trying to accuse the other one.Kafupi had all the HELL 10 YEARS to take KK to court.
Really I sense a troubled spirit in Ka short man.
What ever it takes he will pay one way or the other.
Its simple logic,why didnt the world turn its back against K.K.long live KK in peace.
AND LONG LIVE KAFUPI IN QUARANTINE,DISTRESS .
Which hotel is expensive and comfortable,CHIMBOKAILA OR MUKOBEKO.I think Ba KK WILL BE ABLE TO ADVISE.
I don’t support either kk or ftj not even levy because levy is a product of what we ‘re trying to over come.It’s embaracing to see that in zambia for a long time we ‘re fighting politics and not how we can change the economy of our country.I really wonder what we want at the end of day.Kk messed up,chiluba did the same.Why can’t we help levy build a better zambia and not a bitter zambia.
#15, gk is behaving like a SATANIST. Zambians have the spirit of forgive and forget. Lest forget the past and concentrate on the future. Kaloba LPM ageta ku China who will pay. Its the future generation te? Manje, nabe LPM must think thrice B4 sinking Zed like Titanic te?
Kuku, jambe sana !!!
#15, gk is behaving like a SATANIST. Zambians have the spirit of forgive and forget. Lest forget the past and concentrate on the future. Kaloba LPM ageta ku China who will pay. Its the future generation te? Manje, nabe LPM must think thrice B4 sinking Zed like Titanic te?
Kuku, jambo sana !!!
#17&18 well done Ba Joze mwapula TZ keep it up but remember to declare all the goods,let us help to reach MDGs.gk is a frustrated soul who neither knows God nor Jesus.FTJ deserves to be forgiven and we must move on with other things.Lusaka Times the subjects you are putting up nowadays are too boring and can only attract small minds like gk impulumushi.Bring challenging topics like mining taxes not ifi ifyabukazizi ifyakwebati na ba gk balecita contribute.
BaJoze chi blog chili boring please intervene from TZ and travel safely back so that twingishe umuchanga not ukulacula mu diaspora ukupipa abasungu bakota
JOZE WAMONA WAMBALA,YOU ARE MIXING ISSUES,YOU DONT HAVE ANALYTICAL SENSES.how does LPM and China come in Kafupi stealings and repaying.Dont you understand one account can not pay another account.Your sense of understanding of economical issues is that of IDI AMIN.Please note all monies and government propertise have to be accounted for.In any country wether soverign or not their should be sanity.Even countries were thier is war,international organistions have come back to reprimand individuals that have been a menacy to thier people,examples of AGUSTINO PINOCHE,FERDINAND MARCOS,THE japanise second world war for using chinese women for their brothels,people have to be accounted in one way or the other.PLEASE JOZE ULI MUNTU WASHANI.AT FIRST I THOUGHT IT WAS SENSE OF HUMOUR,NOW AM WORRIED,LIMBI BUSHILU uBWABU CHUSHI,PANTU PEOPLE run mad when political positions are taken away.I feel you were a minister under chiluba and this time you are hitting the streets and hiding under kaponya guise.
IWE ka KUKU,DISPORA EFINSHI,Please dont name your child ati diaspora.What did you contribute on taxes,probably you meant TAXIS.YOU CONTRIBUTE AS A TAXI DRIVER.( REFER TO TOPIC)
MULECHIMONA,you will suffer with kafupi na joze.You were stealing peoples money,giving your selves unsustantiated tenders.MWEMBIFI MWE.
#20 Bushe iwe gk wafuma kwisa kanshi?You need to be baptized imiponto shafula sana.Ba Joze ebo uleyeba ifyamusalula so?Wabwelapofye tawafundwa uliciwelewele ca muntu.Ulecinidka abakalamba tawayishiba ati ebateka Kulima Tower?Ba Joze organise that pastor who baptized Levy in Lusaka when he was excommunicated, he is the only one who will help deliver gk before tabalamubwesha ku USA.uyu muntu nimbutushi takwata ma pepala yalondoloka.Forgive him
#21 Ba gk kuti mwafilwa meaning ya ‘Diaspora’ ifwe ba Kaponya twamicila na vocabulary, mulisebanya lyamuntu mukabwele mukesepwisha gade4 pa mumuni ku kabwata eko twasamilile aya ma powerful words.Imwe ba coroprate world temuyeshibe.Cansoni sana ba gk.Ba Joze is trying to email that pastor you need to be delivered from that demon.gk you are possessed, we cant let you get wasted like that.Ufwile ukupola ngulu isho epotalaponena mu atlantic ocean.I was of limited knowledge that is why I didnt contribute anything on mines but I learnt something vital for my lively hood unlike you who just like insulting people.Iam not like Levy who does not believe in forgiveness, I have since forgiven you with all my heart now lets move on.DONT EVER INSULT IN PUBLIC OKAY GK ITS IMMORAL.
LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOU LOVE YOURSELF THAT IS THE GREAT COMMANDMENT BUT DONT WORRY YOU WILL BE TAUGHT ALL THESE VERSES ONCE DELIVERED
Bo Nalisa sha (#9),good searching questions. I’m sure with the ‘hands on’ experience in the orient you’ll be in a better position to ‘think tank’ on how to resolve some of Zambia’s nightmares…..futuristically thinking.
#20, gk stands for “geteni kaloba”. Am a grade 12 from chiwala boys but my knowlege is more than yours you got 4year from university. Thanks google to make me a sharp boy. Iwe chi gk, i said the govt must think about the future te? imagine ba Sata mageta plot one, do think your idol LPM akaitamba bwino? tHE BEST IS TO FORGET VERGENCY AND STOPING SPEAKING CHUNG CHONG CHANG pa state house return kaloba yaba wang hong te? Michael Jackson alimba anti “think about the children” gk uwisaka sana.
Ba JOZE AND KUKU PEACE MEN.
mwaice gk i have forgiven you pantu i have the spirit of a zambian yaku forgive and forget, unlike your idol te? manje tubike pola panshi.
I still maintain my position on KK, I have never heard KK say anything nice about FTJ, while FTJ has always exercised restraint when it comes to talking or commenting on KK’s issues. On the Judgment issue i give my props up to LPM. He has kept quite on this one until he was forced to make a comment. The old man should retire ,stay home and enjoy our money. None of these guys worth listening to. They want to champion issues now when they are out. KK also store from us. FTJ didn’t prosecute KK because he wanted to perfect the tradition of stealing. They are all thieves. Like Moses said LPM is a product of corruption (LPM is corrupt)
ok. can we have an update on whats cutting. is there an appeal or what/ has grz mananged to register the judgement here. we need some progress and why has the donegal become quite. we need pipo to be on their toes and keep us abreast. does it always have to take a toothless parliamentary committee to bring issues to light. civil society where are you? just busy drinking tea in convention centres and lodges and admiring gold plated taps somewhere or just jet setting around the globe. we need progress and we need to get back what belongs to us and see the positve returns.
this is the perspective our father of the nation shd be coming from. what has appened has happened so we need to move on and not dwell on lost causes
And with stones they came. Some with big ones, some with small ones! That the woman they may stone. For in the act of adultery, they had caught her, so they claimed! One after the other, judgment they pronounced! That to die was her fate! For such kind of people deserve nothing but to die! And to die at the hands of a mob they call “stone throwers!†In fear and agitation the woman was overwhelmed! For none, talked about her getting a second chance! For such, deserve no mercy but to die! So in unison, they all shouted! That she should be gotten rid of! But the Master, the better or best judge of them all stooped to write! That he who has not sinned must be first. First to cast the stone! And from the eldest of them all they left! For none of them had not! Only that none had been caught! So, with disappointment, they all left! For the Master is a better judge! Better than Smith! Better than preachers of freedom, who denied freedom to masses! Until to the bush they went, determined to free themselves. For the Master had said, “He who has no sin let him be first to cast the stone at her!†The Master had said, “Woman has anyone condemned you?†Trembling and astonished, she had replied, “No Lord, not even one!†The Master had said, “Even I condemn thee not! Go and sin no more!â€
#30,CK ,I hope gk #15 has taken note of this parable.You are a man of God,please spread the message to some bloggers on this fora who need deliverance and assuming FTJ does not deserve any mercy but must be crucified in Chimbokaila.To forgive is Godly but to hate is of men.Woe to you all who are heart hardened for you shall be cast away like chaff of wheat and burnt in hell together with LPM your idol.Laws were meant for men not man for the laws.
Lubasi #9, that is right. Development issues tabulated must be brought forth. Great work.
I think its better to get the FTJ has to pay and be used for repaying the Vulture Funds. This will be a good reconcilation for the Zambians, ex head of state and the former president.
Vulture Funds = FTJ + KK a good formula isnt
I am afraid to have people of the calibre of Kuku to air their distructive and childish analysis on what should be a challenging topic. I wish I had known earlier on before I read the nonsese he was forwarding, I would have definitely not wasted my precious time in vain going through his trash. Please be focussed and contribute frutifully to the main topic that everyone is discussing. By diverting to start insulting someone who is trying to bring you back in tune implies you are not worth to be a member of the family that is discussing usefull ideas. Therefore, I would suggest that you pack your pen and go to the streets where you can use it for writing graffiti. This is a forum for people with proper skill for analysis and not time wasters. Time is money. Therefore do not write anything that will waste people’s time. I beg you for I have been forced to write because of your an un-becoming comments..
KUKU n JOZE its not forgiveness I was asking from you.ITS peace for your self.I NEVER wronged and never will.I put my thoughts and my belief forward.And you can NOT call me mwaiche,just because you have a bald head.
The feeling Nkataboy has to you both,is the feeling I developed and many more people.
All your contributions I feel,and probably not me ALONE,are nonsensical and trash to say the list.
Please be advised you try to preach forgiveness on that thief Ka chiluba but you use abusive langauge on mwanawasa.This tells us something on who you are.A self styled unccouth individual with low levels human insticts if you have any if not those of a hyena that waits to pounce on ill or dead animals.
It points out that you were enjoying and benefiting from chiluba s regime as you were masquariding the Zambian masses.
Let me point out here that keep away contributing bullshit as you were waste our productive time.
#35,what a waste of energy and breath.what have you achieved by writing like this?Shame on you.Your friends like #34 have continued to contribute but you have opted to act irresponsibly? Ba Joze here comes another heart patient?Where is the moon today?
Nkataboy you need deliverance, you are not obliged to read all the comments especially from me, okay young man.I use my hard earned money to browse here not the kick backs from Chinese.
Born Rich mwaice mona impofu nayimbi iyi called Nkata ilenchita harass for nothing.You even woke at 3.54am to write crap, what a waste go and sleep then wake up and rethink your comments.My address is Main Masala bus stop ,I will ba waiting for your reformed and objective contribution
Yes, the 14-day ultimatum has lapsed. I concur with Paprika @ # 29. What action has GRZ taken to enforce Smith’s judgment? Can someone please tell us what’s going on.
If GRZ has failed, let them ask Donegal International how it’s done. Or better still set them after FTJ. A vulture is a patient bird. Only problem, it devours everything. So Zambia stands to lose again!
Mr. Kuku,
The topic to discuss here is “Two former heads of state should respect each other and stop using the media to settle their old scores”. What do you say about this topic. Do you want me to become your lecturer? You are off topic with your wild and weired comments. I now agree that my earlier comment was rightly put and directed to a right person of low calibre in terms of analysis. Please leave me alone if you can not contribute to the above highlighted topic. This is how we lose sight for respect as much as we would want our former leaders to resct each other. And they should do so at the time of difficulties and at the time when all is rose. Stop that vulgar type of language and concetrate on the topic. Because if you have no authority to respect yourself then you will not be able to respect anyone else.
#39,ubufumu buchindika umwine, you attacked me,I didnot attack you,so dont complain from without.You have just realised that you were offside.I understand the topic more than you do and for your own information you cannot become my lecturer cos Iam more wiser than you do.Evaluation of one’s calibre is a diverse subject and stop being emotional when you cant solve your own problems, let me hear what is troubling you.Iam made to believe you have just disguised yourself to pose as Nkata and yet you are gk.Write like CK#30 if you want to convince me that you are a man with high calibre.What you have contributed #39 doesnot prove your high calibre at all,umuti wamutima Nkataboy palyapali icimuti balikulapo inganda but Schizophrenia is treatble at Chainama, Iam ready to book you in.You have this energy which is not being used appropriately.Be sensible dont spoil my day nor that of other bloggers
i do agree with # 39, this forum has a topic as much as we would like to have some humor we would like to have it linked to the topic at hand. Some of the contributions do add value to our lives so we need structured analysis , it is one of the ways we can have a go at the Zambian experience. So can Kuku and Ba Jose contribute constructively , we appreciate your humor guys but just consider others as well.
The development of Zambia in all respects, lies in a leadership which is free from hatred, bitterness and vengeance, and above all leadership with integrity and morality.
If you have no love others, which God do you serve? because our God is love and thats his nature. Now our KK has harboured hatred and unforgiveness towards Chiluba for a long time, no wander pipo think he is ‘indisho’. Can pls pastors of this blog deliver this man from unforgiveness, be4 he dies in sin. After role we zambians have forgiven him for enginerring the killing such pipo as our dear bishop Alias Mutale and others. Only umwana wa ndisho dont forgive.
#42, Kuku. Allota continua. That is what we want. You are now in the right direction. Congratulations. At least I can agree that you are a man that heeds to what others say. I conquer with you. We need leaders of big heart. Leaders that can abosrb any form of pressure and transform it into something useful- something tangible. We need leaders that should look into social, economic, physical, natural and human resources as entry points for development. We do not want leaders that will always be talking about emotional things. However, for the two that are criss-crosing each other, I think you can agree with me that as people grow old, there is some behavioural change that take place in them. I would suggest that even what they say to each other needs careful analysis and interpretation. Those that have leaved with eldery people will agree with me. Grand parents’ behaviour differs with what they behaved when they were parents. Those two are grands and I would suggest we don’t take sides.
#44 Nkataboy, Iam deeply humbled by your calibre now I can even dine with you in my palace.There is a great leader in you.But try to find gk so that we can invite him for this special meal called reconciliation,forgiveness, humility,perseverance and above all love.The older you grow the wiser, Grand parents do all sorts of things to bring love to the little ones not that they have become affected with amnesia or dimentia.What is prevailing on political front has been excerbbated by hate nothing else.KK must be the pacifier in all these but has opted to choose otherwise.It does not augur well for the growing youngsters that is why kids of today cannot respect elders because elders have failed to show the way.If you came to my Katemba at Main Masala these kids talk to elders like they are equals,they can not give a seat to an old man on the bus because the culture of respect is non existent in Zambia, from the Head of state to me Kaponya.So Nkataboy where do you think we start from?
#45, Kuku, you are well come with your wise ideas. There is nowhere where we can start from apart from forgiving each other as a country and start all over. Look at USA and Japan. USA dropped 2 atomic bombs in Japan. Thousands of Japanese died. Do you know what the Japanese did. They forgave USA and started all over concentrating on future development and forgot about what had happened. Now look at Japan. It is the most developed country in the world. If they want with their technology, they can invent anything that can surprise USA today. But they can’t do so because they forgave USA and they have always taught principles of reconciliation to their children not to endeavour to avenge. This is what we want. No respect from young ones is a conotation emanating from poverty. Those days when we had play parks who would see children loitering around. Let us fight poverty and all the respect will be restored. To #36 gk and #41 nonhlanhla I salute you please post your comments.
#46, if you cant beat them join them. ama japajapa tenti ya clobba USA, so ama japajapa humbled te? But Kuku is a man with big heart te? so gk bamucita forgive. gk ba humble mwaice, utu ma-glass utu ufwala tula kumwenesha kwati ulesoma ma chromosomes ya pefu. iwe mwaice gawa pula pa zed ukaba kapesula wamupamba. I have medicine for your heart problem but apaba umuti balikulapo inganda but nga waba humble i can tell the owner to destroy the house. You pipo !!! why are you not hummering chi gk icilisaka capa mwinshi? He is insulting over size te?
Kuku boyi bye
#47 Ba Joe-TZ, I missed most of the things you wrote about because I don’t understand the language. I hope you were saying that our leaders should learn to forgive one another. If so, I will give you a plus because that is what we want. As for Kuku, I think he is a good man and so is gk.
#41 AND NKATABOY seems to be same gk boy to me. your chargement is one sided te? so your comment is crap!!
Kuku #42 & 45 and Nkhataboy # 44 & 46 great job guys!
#50,what has happened on this discusion is what we expect our leaders to be.Leaders must be tolerant to all as they are entrusted with dealing and accepting people from different classes, calibre, intelligence,disabled name them,so if one has read between lines a leader is a person who stands to accept insults, be belittled,called all sorts of names,shamed,etc and this what Jesus went through.You can not be a leader if you dont have a heart for others.So people who want to groom themselves for leadership must not always except to get opinion which are obvious but ready to meet people like Kuku who are always unreasonable, unable to interpret one’s thinking and above all kaponyas as these will make the great part of your community.AMEN
Greetings again,
I notice that we are now focusing on forgivness of FTJ, which means that most agree he is guilty. I choose not to analyze the issue from a religious perspective for this will only lead to subjective dispensation of justice. So in order to remain objective I will stick to a somewhat social or legal perspective.
I say we apply the law in the manner it is wretten. If restitution is what should apply let it be. If jail time, sorry but so be it.
Does this mean we have no forgivness in law? I’m sure we do. Mitigating curcumstances dectate how this applies. The extenuating issues, that if presented might lead to a presidential pardon are another. In any case Guilty is Guilty and the law should apply. Forgive without transperancy and you might as well let all those connered by the commissions walk as well.
On the LPM not taking an active role in the way the case advances, remember we want an independent judiciary. Good work LPM stay out of this one.
loadist out !
#52 laodist, you have missed the discussion,its about respect between presidents (KK,FTJ,LPM) in no particular order, as for FTJ’s predicaments, I feel its not for anyone to judge until we see how SMith’s judgement will be applied.In an efficient system today we must have had a good feedback from the excitement made on May 4.Todate nothing seems to be happening?Are people stuck with their assumptions or are scared to ask Smith on how to go about the issue.There is a vacuum is our system until that vacuum shall we be enlightened to comment.For now everyone is entitled to their opinion on FTJ.
Chilumba, thanks for the note but I ask that you read my ealier contributions(#2) on the discussion tabled. I did not intend to divert attention from what we are discussing but was marely responding to some contributions regarding the forgivness issue.
loadist out.
#54 I see you still stand by what you feel is right in#2&6 and I applaude you for that its good to believe in what you believe in but there is no harm to accept discerning views as well.So far not even those with legal skills on this blog have helped the marjority of us understand what is to come next.The whole purpose of dialoguing is find a common solution at the end of it all but we all left in suspense, the Post has over orchestrated this case and have stoped writing on the vulture judgement because even in this case there are prominent persons involved who should be named and shamed like FTJgate scandal.
I’m no legal expert but I was wondering if our main source for precedence and common law is the English legal system wouldn’t that mean that Smith’s judgement is wholey binding. Also does that mean that changes to British law adopted even after our independence are also applicable to Zambian law? Can someone please explain the Reciprocity treaty, agreement or whatever it is to us.
FTJgate (lol)!!! I like that.
Once again for luck of a better forum I divert from the main disscusion and God bless the brain box that started this very informative blog. Thank you very much.
Loadist out.
#55 Francis and #56 Loadist, good contributions. I am not a legal expert either but I feel it is true that Zambia adopted the British system or law from independence and her judgment may without doubt follow or parallel that country’s laws. However, my bone of contention has been to allow someone outside Zambia’s judicial system (a foreign court) in this case sentence a former president of an independent nation called Zambia. The other concern is that if the British court (His master’s voice) makes a ruling as has been done before the Zambian courts do, the fear of a prejudiced and preemptive ruling certainly remains looming. In almost no terms do I ever foresee the Zambian courts going against the master’s voice because logic has it that you certainly cannot bite the finger that feeds you. Lastly, I have seen some powerful nations if they want to come up with a case against you, they just start painting you black! The more and more they do so, the darker you become! Finally, a case is built against you because everybody has now been conditioned to think likewise. The association has been achieved. I am not protecting anyone but our laws believe in innocence until proved guilty and forbid to comment directly on cases that are being tried. Some newspapers are the police, jury and judges and have already sentenced the accused and have all the protection, surprisingly!
CK, good questions asked. As the great composer said “howlong shall they kill our prophets while we stand aside and look”. I’m by no means saying FTJ was a prophet but was, as you rightly said, our leader and in some light always will be. Whather good or bad is another debate.
I’m marely speculating, in my thinking the reason gonvernment went after FTJ and crew in such a court was to provide wider recognition of the judgement to ensure a more comprehensive recovery process. This way all the countries in the EU and hopefully commonwealth will honor the judgement and cooperate in letting our government retrieve whatever asserts FTJ and others may have in those countries.
Another question does every zambian regardless of what they are charged with have the right ot be tried in such a court? If not who makes the decesion AG, DPP or is it the presedent?
GOD HELP US WE NEED A CONSTITUTON!
LOADIST OUT!
#58, if we look at the upbringing of KK, FTJ and Levy will be able to gauge where the degree of stubbornness they have come from. KK, a son of a missionary who did not find it hard to be accepted in Chisali (shambalakale farm) but he had no friends apart from the late Simon Kampwempwe whom he later ditched. FTJ, most of his childhood is black out but he only saw his biological father when he was the president,then he’s a B***D. levy, grew up in Mupambe, a small place in Mufulira where ba “ka-boyi”(house servants)used to stay but his father was a “kanyangu” (night watchman), he was a polygamist with two wifes in a small two roomed house. Levy grew up in that area together with brig gen Miyanda (one may wonder why they are not good friends?). Levy’s father was a short tempered man who used to beat Levy with a bamboo stick for no apparent reasons at times and that made Levy to be a loner.
Thanks Loadist # 58. This is the reason why from the offset of the case I had been greatly concerned about the precedent set by this government. To just put this argument straight the view that the British Court was involved to help retrieve the alleged stolen money does not hold any water because other reasons were at play than this one. Our court system (which I also criticize for their snail’s pace in dealing with cases before them and need to be reprimanded heavily on that) could easily have come up with the verdict which assuming was a conviction, Zambia being a signatory to many international bodies could easily have pursued that recovery process. The precedent we have caused which I have observed in other writings is really a bad taste for our country to the independence and respect of our judicial system despite having our learned colleague as leader of Zambia. I had wanted to hear from independent lawyers (although someone has said he never trusts any), such as the Prof. Patrick Mvunga or the former FTJ’s advisor Eric Silwamba who I have heard nothing from in years on this view. The only problem I have so far is that in all these debates, the defendant has been tried and sentenced which without doubt prejudices the outcome of the case. In the strictest sense, Smith’s ruling is not binding but after “the law†is played around with later, it will be, there it will depend on who wants what.
Ba Chilumba, you are a great man with a passion for everyone,Last time I appealed kuli Ba Joze ati this chi blog is becoming boring but from #50 to #60 the topic has attracted great minds and has become interesting once more.I hope gk mwaice now you have learnt something.As for Nkata boy we shall remain pals, Iam actually printing an invitation card for that meal,dont forget to bring gk, it will be at Mukuba hotel.By then Ba Joze will be back from TZ but my worry suppose I dont find cas, do they accept promisary notes?
CK/Chilumba/Samk/Loadist(find a better id) you guys can take Zambia far but where are you found?My address is at Main Masala bus stop please pop in when you are in Ndola.
Its my sincere prayer that FTJ receives fair treatment in this crusade.Smith is not a Christian Iam reliably told he is a massonist,so be careful those of you who are talking ill of him.You will disappear without knowing.
CK,
you say that this judgement is non binding. Does our government know this? What a waste of resources if this is the case. So we spend valuable time and money in acquiring a judgement we cant enforce. We are in bad shape if our prosecutorial process and officials need practice on a case of this magnitude.
Now that mother Britain has led the way what we, follow the leader? Ha!
Someone please explain to us what exactly this moot trial was meant to achieve. Whose decision was it and why? Just when we thaught we were making progress I come to learn this is all a joke.
CK please provide to me the authority you are quoting that in anyway suggests that this judgement is non binding. No disrespect intended but you can’t in all that is in the name of justice be right. If Zambia can abide by rulings in English courts made in medieval times why not this one? Unless this particular ruling contradicts a particular local statute in which which one?
Loadist out!
# 58, to be fair on LPM, most Zambians relate to the situations you’ve described in your contribution. In a way that’s what gave them the drive to work themselves out of poverty. Maybe that’s why LPM had a straight route to UNZA of the three presidents.
PS:
# 63 actually refers to # 59. Apologies # 58.
Loadist # 58. Basing my arguments on the sovereignty of Zambia as espoused by the Constitution, my inference is that Smith’s judgment is not binding. However, reading through our constitution, there are several gray areas and loopholes that I believe will be used to bind that judgment, as I had said earlier depending on who is playing the cards and who has more muscle than the other. I tried to extract parts of the Constitution but obviously it is too long. Here is what it claims.
Article 91 discuses what the composition of the courts shall be in Zambia. However, a loophole is the constituent of an Act of Parliament that can bring the whole ball game different. Nevertheless, depending on who plays the game, sovereignty is the biggest fall back that the country falls on and should never be allowed to be played with! The Constitution also promises an autonomous judiciously. Is ours autonomous?
Article 18 promises protection of the individual under law unless convicted by the law.
Article 94 is another thorny one granting the Chief justice to make rules on powers and jurisdiction of the High Court. All citations below are just extracts and may not be true representations as they do not show continuity!
Zambia – Constitution
________________________________________
{ Adopted on: 24 Aug 1991 }
{ Enacted on: 30 Aug 1991 }
{ ICL Document Status: 30 Aug 1991 }
Preamble
We, the people of Zambia, by our representatives assembled in our Parliament, having solemnly resolved to constitute Zambia into a Sovereign Democratic Republic; In Pursuance of our determination to uphold our inherent and inviolable right to decide, appoint and proclaim the means and style whereby we shall govern ourselves as a united and indivisible Sovereign State;
Proceedings from the premise that all men have the right freely to determine and build their own political, economic and social system by ways and means of their own free choice;
Determined to ensure the rights of all men to participate fully and without hindrance in the affairs of their own government and in shaping the destiny of their own mother land;
Recognizing that individual rights of citizens including freedom, justice, liberty and quality are founded on the realization of the rights and duties of all men in the protection of life, liberty and property, freedom of conscience, expression and association within the context of our National Constitution;………..……….
Part I National Sovereignty and State
Article 1 [Declaration of Republic]
(1) Zambia is a sovereign Republic.
(2) This Constitution is the Supreme Law of Zambia and if any other law is inconsistent with this Constitution, that other law shall, to the extent of the inconsistency, be void;
(3) The official language of Zambia shall be English.
Article 18 [Protection of Law]
(1) If any person is charged with a criminal offence, then, unless the charge is withdrawn, the case shall be afforded a fair hearing within a reasonable time by an independent and impartial court established by law.
(2) Every person who is charged with a criminal offence —
(a) shall be presumed to be innocent until he is proved or has pleaded guilty;
(b) shall be informed as soon as reasonably practicable, in a language that he understands and in detail, of the nature of the offence charged;……….
Article 91 [Courts]
(1) The Judicature of the Republic shall consist of:
(a) the Supreme Court of Zambia;
(b) the High Court of Zambia; and
(c) such other courts as may be prescribed by an Act of Parliament.
(2) The judges of the courts mentioned in clause (1) shall be independent, impartial and subject only to this Constitution and the law.
(3) The Judicature shall be autonomous and shall be administered in accordance with the provisions of an Act of Parliament ………
Article 94 (High Court)
Section (5) gives the Chief justice to make rules on powers and jurisdiction conferred on the High Court!!
CK, thankyou for your enlightenment. I guess my question now is how then was this court inacted was it by an act of parliarment? sovereignty is no nation atribute to play with. However we should realize that just as in international law sometimes we refer to courts outside our own judiciary for guidence especially if those courts are deemed to be of longer establishment than ours. E.g international courts of Justice just as long as the principals of those courts are not in contradiction with any local statutes.
If our constitution does provide for the convening of a court such as convicted FTJ then this ruling should hold. I do not think we are compromising sovereignty by refering to such a court. It is as it is wretten now a fact that our law is largely an extrapolation of common or English law. For the large part I think Smith was presiding on matters of fact and evidence admission and not statutory instruments regarding what is consdered a crime in Zambia.
Loadist out!
#55 to #67, I think you have lost the topic. Find a place where you can discuss the UK judgement. Our bone of contation here is the repect and forgiveness that should be addressed by our former heads of state to each other. We are not inteested in knowing whether you know the constitution of Zambia or not. If it is to do with the constitution of Zambia, what does it mean about respect and forgiveness in terms of our former leaders. Do not lead us into temptation, please stick to the point so that we can conlude this discussion. No matter how reasonable and sound a contribution can be, if you misdirect it, it futile. I still stick to my guns that we should not take sides in as far as confusion between Dr. Chiluba and Dr. Kaunda is concerned. According to my analysis from the forgoing contributions, it appears those based on the Copperbelt would want to say KK was wrong and those in the midlands vice versa. Please refrain..
NKhataboy with all due respect I beg to differ with you. Firstly there is not much that is left to say about the exchange of words between the two former presidents. We all agree that they should refrain.
Secondly The whole exchange was bruoght about by the judgement so why not discuss it? Blogs are supposed to be informal fora of discussion from which we can exchange ideas and indeed educate each other.
If you follow the evolution of this discussion and read all our earlier contributions you will learn how this discussion came to take it’s current form.
This is not a debate session.In any case your point of order is noted. In my defence please refer to #2 and #6.
Loadist out!
Nkhataboy # 68, thanks and your point is noted. I was just trying to answer questions directed at me by #62 Loadist. I too did not love to go any further than what my convictions had been earlier. Perhaps Francis or other colleagues can help us on the Act of Parliament. I am not sure if that is the case (anyone to clarify please), suffice to say Parliament stripped of the president’s immunity and that is where whoever has an interest shall “bend” the case to come up the outcome. I now rest my case on this matter.
#68, I made reference to your #2 and #6 and I give you a pat on the back. As for #70, CK, I like your contributions please continue.
CK#70,your valuable knowledge cannot be ignored and must be appreciated greatly.The centre of controversy has eminated from having our leaders who have not paid great attention in the formulation of a credible constitution that will stand the test of time for the zambians for endless generations.The preamble in the constitution is very concise and the phrases’indivsible sovereinity’is what our focus must be whenevr we discussing governance issues.But the problem we have CK is having this document(constitution)known to all people not just the enlightened but everyone in the Republic and this where the problem comes,Lawyers have taken advantage and our MPs as ignorant as anything to speak and discuss the constitution with their electorates.Until such a time Zambians learn and understand what the constitution means,Zambia is heading for disaster.I have alot to share on the constitution but for now I decline and many thanks CK for your contributions,those with interest have learnt somethin
#71, Nkhataboy, you are welcome and thanks, #72 Francis, thanks for your wisdom, I hear you!
The unfortunate situation of the sickness of the president cannot be a surprise looking at how those that once were rubbing shoulders with him have distanced themselves from him to protect their positions. The second republic government of our nation goes into the annals of history as one of the greatest tragedies and betrayals in human government systems of all the time. Founded with what appeared to be a best matrix that comprised successful businessmen, highly educated professionals, seasoned labour leaders and former political leaders that had fallen out of favour with the KK leadership, on paper seamed to be the best ever assembled leadership in the history of Zambia. Alas, it was not! The cost of failure to know well people that you surrounded yourself with is perhaps the tragedy that does haunt our former president FTJ daily. Arguably, it is unavoidable to have a black sheep in your pick, even Jesus had one, but to have more than a dozen without knowing about it is to say the least lack of discernment or misplaced trust! What former president KK feared about some of the most powerful and rich that the movement had courted vindicated KK that they were bent to enrich themselves and were rightly sponsored by outside powerful forces to have a stake in Zambia’s wealth and eventually destabilize and control our economy. This is true today. The following FTJ’s trusted lieutenants turned on him, ditched him, betrayed him or unbelievably once spoke ill of him: Dr. Roger Chongwe, Baldwin Nkumbula, Dean Mung’omba, Derrick Chitala, Dr. Akashambatwa Mbikusita Lewanika, Dr. Ludwig Sondashi, Simon Zukas, Michael Sata, Mike Mulongoti, Michael Mabenga, Edith Nawakwi, and lastly Levy M. In it all, Godfrey Miyanda and a few others exemplified true leadership, loyalty and trust, perhaps another costly overlooked mistake that president FTJ will live to regret throughout his life. Listening to the right advisors could have saved our undoubtedly Zambia’s most eloquent and intelligent president ever and spared him of the current unnecessary embarrassment. History and posterity will stand to judge the rights and wrongs of a once trusted chosen leader turned foe. (As a man of God that you are continue to read Psalm 35 given to you by Francis, and like David, God shall sure come through for you).
Greetings,
May someone hopefully in the FTJ camp give us an update on how he is doing? Surely it does not take this long to come up with a preliminary diagnosis. People are starting to speculate and this could lead to alot of wrong conclusions which in turn could hurt FTJ’s reputation and credibility.
Despite how we feel about the cases he is facing we care about his welfare. He was our president. All those calling for his immediete crucifiction I beg please slow your raw, Justice will come the train is in motion and it can not be stopped now.
Recovery of the asserts involved is all I care about chances are he will recieve a presidential pardon anyway. I only hope he recovers fully and quickly so this matter can come to a conclusion and we can concetrate on other more pressing economic and developmental issues.
What goes around comes around!
Loadist out!
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Hey I hate you!!!!!!!!!!!