The Zambia Police Service has instituted investigations to impound all buses that were involved in ferrying cadres to police headquarters in Lusaka when UPND Leader Hakainde Hichilema was being interrogated.
Police Spokesperson Esther Katongo says more than 32 buses full of cadres were spotted last week Wednesday.
Mrs. Katongo disclosed this to ZNBC news in Lusaka.
And Mrs. Katongo said the loss of two lives during the commotion that happened last week is regrettable.
The Zambia Police Spokesperson said the public disturbance could have been avoided had the leaders of UPND taken heed of the advice earlier given by relevant authorities.
Mrs. Katongo said the Public Order Act regulates assemblies, public meetings and processions in the country.
She said section 5 cap 4 demands that persons intending to assemble or convene a public meeting, procession or demonstration should give police notice of their intention to do so.
Mrs. Katongo said this provision does not exempt those that want to give solidarity by gathering in a public place.
Hmm now this rubbish and cheap coming from the police honestly what as buses got to do in this case do buses protest now pa zed
Am I the only one losing hope in our ZP leadership?
Lengwe Kalamwina Ntumbe l lost confidence moment l noticed they are partisan ie years ago.
Likezo I hoped to see a change in their leadership. But their days are numbered.
Lengwe Kalamwina Ntumbe you are even late
Eng Mwansa Daniel Snr ??? I had hope that things might change.
Lengwe Kalamwina Ntumbe under the unable leadership of ecl?
Eng Mwansa Daniel Snr yes boi
ZP zabwino palibe
Good Vibes it’s a bad thing
So the buses were also part of the protest? Which law are you using Esther?
Impound for what?
Doesn’t make sense
We don’t have leaders.. there was business involved
Imwe banthu this crazy ,people died and u busy doing the opposite
just arrest the officer/s who shot people than involve bus drivers who were on business.
This is crazy what are the ZP smoking ?
Yes buses are the one that used the guns and shot down people.
Impound da buses,next u will impound their nrc,cell phones and their houses.kiki this is fun indeed wer is da professionalism in da service
What law did those bus commit in carrying cadets, come on Zambia police stop reducing your institution to a political party branch. Mind you that is a state institution.
You should also close the roads they used when coming that side and if they were traffic lights on those roads you should switch them off too.
Newton Su Simutanyi ????
Which law will they use?
Don’t start something you’ll not qwench.
#WISDOM
This leadership also
What is the offence? Under what law?
And where is the report?we are still waiting,do your jobs bane…..
They (ZP) will be taken to court for loss of business and will be made to pay
Iam sensing one party state has now advanced. Sata used same buses and taxis , no one impounded and the police are rapidly campaigning for HH again simply because those buses were hired and paid for especially that business is tough.now the bus and taxis drivers will take the story to stations and we will see how PF shall campaign in stations. Sofar inter city is upnd but under fear of victimisation.
The police is now the patriotic Front youth wing
Rtsa Act has no such offense….
Abuse of office ! No law supports this , in fact bus owners should sue .
Sikana Andrew Sumbwa nabapena!as if the constitution has been suspended!
Victor Musonda looks like they have run out of ideas .
What law covers what you intending to do?
Honestly, instead of arresting people who fired live ammunition, you are impounding buses you heartless people!
We call for justice for Zambians you killed you evil people! Instead of protecting us, you are killing us!
This is what Archbishop responded to saying ‘it is the freedom of Zambians to move where they want.’ Which Constitution are you using? Under your watch, two more people have been killed.
PF police are cleansing their dirt gamec by impounding the busses.
The damage is already done and just release the them.
We have known that you wanted to fix an innocent soul but things went wrong.
Edgar Lungu is the main culprit here and we sort him out.
The revolt is beginning in the ruling PF. You shall see and hear beginning February most PF mps and officials leaving Edgar Lungu alone.
Zambia is not Uganda or Zimbabwe. The 2001 drama shall repeat itself.
PF must cleanse itself right now and for else you will remain without a candidate.
PF must go!
So what are the bus got to do with the killings….???? This man woman is the worst Daft thing have ever seen in her profession.
We are waiting for the report why you fired live ammunition on civilians not this rubbish you are expressing here.
Please ZP can you resight cap and section of laws of Zambia, where you will get such a law please. Can you redeem yourself ( ZP ) you’re sinking.
We shall vote in huge numbers to liberate ourselves. Otherwise another 5 year extension for this administration,we shall end up admiring Uganda today.
The entire police command agreeing to such resolutions and going ahead to punish them in the media, this will be something you shall regret ever doing, every sane persons knows buses have always being used many times to ferry cadres and for them it’s business irrespective of which party hires them. Business of buses cuts across political barriers… Be warned and don’t take your political fight to the stations because bus drivers have almost the same influence as artists
Can you just identify the shooter and not buses because was making cashing for his boss and your traffic police officers
U should impound the pf buses too
Only dull minds can do that. Those people were doing business. They are in transport business. Just give us a report . Among your officers who killed the two gentlemen. That’s what we would like to hear. We are not kids anyway.
Misplaced investigation
Lost confidence in zp.
The bus owners should take the case to court they were doing business.
Ninshi have we suspended the constitution. ?
Eddson Kadzamira Phiri as simple as that.
And if they were hired??? Yaba!!! Court case is boiling
Uku ekutumpa nomba
Intelligence and wisdom always makes a helpful combination ??
Pf and zp should not take Zambians for granted. Bus owners run business. Any one who will impound a bus for ferrying cadres will be breaking the law. There is no law that allows police to impound a bus that was legally hired to ferry people to a destination. Unless the buses were hired for the purposes of committing a crime. Let us for once be serious, why should so many people die and suffer just to ensure that a very unpopular, repressive regime remains in power?
Comedy
WENYO…MWAKaNGIWA CHABE!!
Ukunikukangiwa impounding buses????? tipaseni che report
And what is the justification for impounding the buses? Cause I believe they where doing business
Mwale Samson imwe Bantu aba bavuta chabe…
These Cowards, when it’s the ruling party ferrying Cadres you scamper like Cocroaches
Why do you allow one politician to think on behalf of the entire police. Can you redeem yourselves for once!! Who bewitched you?
…..next will be impound shoes, clothes inclusive nama “bamba” from all those who gave surport to HH on that day.
The suff from Malawi is highly potent because goats urinate on it before packaging and exported. Keep away from it.
Sylvester Chisanga ????
Sylvester Chisanga someone is in business and they want to tell them when to do businesses.
Augustine Kapelabulungu ask them its too much mwandi
But this government kwena! Why are they like this? They are targeting the wrong people. They should go for the trigger happy cops who fired the live ammunition
This is crazy
Linda Mseteka ??
Let owners take matter to court and see how much the state will loose in compensation. Bus drivers are in business how can u drag them in this?
Frank Sichone Narep my thoughts cause they were booked
Foolishness..
Hey Gayzar Zulu, nothing to say???!!
God help us… When a bus is hired to ferry pipo to a certain destination what offense has the owner of the bus committed?
Never ending stupidity. It’s like they are trying to reach some goal based on idiocy
Why impounding buses as if they are the ones who shot dead the 2 people.
Next you will hear at we are impounding the brains that cadres used to think that they should follow HH nipano tuli.??????????????????
I’m not with zp on this one but ba upnd where are your lsk based supporters? And 32 buses! So much for the wind of change you are preaching!
I wonder how many families whose livelihoods depend on those buses will be affected. Starting from the women who order and resale vegetables at Soweto, the bus drivers and conductors, the Council and it’s employees who depend on revenue from bus station fees & charges and the general public! Should we keep blaming COVID19 for our ailing economy with such irrational decisions??
Keep it up. We are so much enjoying your disgruntled leadership. I thought you people supposed to be writing “the report”.
Richard Phelem .???
This level of thinking is to low you ‘re trying to create more foes than friends
Nosense
Wrong move madam spokesperson.It is gonna cost you.
Then what?
What is wrong with ZP, there is no sense in what they want to do. How many times has PF ferried cadres from all over the places to where they have rallies?
What has the buses gat to do with shooting of innocent people, they are just showing failure to bring out the truth in the matter and trying to divert people’s attention….
Anyway she is just told what to say.
Fikapwa
Yep. 32 buses shoot tear gases and live ammunition. Must be very special buses. Ladies and gentlemen they found the shooter…
Nonsense
They were paid and it is not an illegal business
They are just after HH not anything else. But when men fight you in this fashion that is the time you will see the hand of God.
Leave the busses alone, arrest the killers, start thinking rationally. were there any buses at the police killing of Frank Mugala, Vespers Shimuzhila, Graziar Matampa, Mapenzi Chibulo, Lawrence Banda and others. Why blame busses now
Easter has become a cadre she wants to be . I. G
Did the buses shoot people?
These guys!! Do they even listen to themselves??? Everything they do is zigzag, chipantepante. Every day they are doing criminality instead of bringing sanity. You want to impound all the buses? For what and who does that?? Don’t you know that maybe those buses were not for the upnd but just hired from independent people?? Why are you being an enemy of the people everyday?? The pf are just using you and you will cry if another government comes in. Mukazipenda nama months remaining. Why are you turning Zambia a police state every day?
This woman is………………….my voters card is safe
The Police are trying to give an impression as if giving solidarity is an offence under the law IN Zambia when not. We even know that even if notification was given for cadres to offer solidarity the Police were going to deny them as they have been fo0lishly been stifling democracy for a long time now. And UPND has structures, it is not HH who organized the buses, the structures felt duty bound to organize buses, and no bus ever killed anybody. Just go and arrest the killer cops, remember even in previous killings by Police no cop has ever been arrested
For wat give us wat we need to hear.the report not ma buses.do yo job
One report siniyiona!!!! You are not doing your job hidiouts
They managed to identify the buses but have failed to identify the cops that were firing live ammuniyion at innocent citizens, va zii?
Loveness Bana Thando Mkandawire I think and know that you are a great mother…your caring for Zambia is so great am following you ooo keep up the great work one day I feel you will be heard……????I cry for our children where is the Zambia….that was so peaceful…….??
Pointing in the wrong direction.
Paul Mulenga boi I thought she was going to comment on the report as to who fired the shots
Nelson Luchele they already know who did, there are now redirecting our attention to buy some time.
Paul Mulenga Kaya maybe boma ilibe fuel to take the report to State House
Nelson Luchele state house has already issued a statement that the public will be made aware in due course
Paul Mulenga Animal farm nokwesha baesha as if their have submitted any
Please do not do that. Deal with the shootings and tell the nation how this matter will be avoided going forward. Buses transport people, they do not pull triggers.
32 buses were used to kill our brothers, too bad
What crime did they commit? This level of stupidity and ignorance should be muted come 2021. The right to lawful assembly and association is enshrined in our constitution. Just because the police are cadres and partisan does not make their actions lawful they are actually infringing on our human rights.
Mubambe Tutu Shimette Which Constitution allows you to misbehave .?ZRA impounds even vehicle that is used to smuggle goods. Fortunately you are the one who is showing ignorance of the law.We need peace in the country . Police are not working for PF , but Zambians.
No one said anything about misbehaving. Please understand I said “right to assembly and association” not misbehaving! Wake up.
Zambia is a total circus ????
Kkkkkkk.impound the roads as well. Poor thinking capacity
Madam you have been the Waste IG, You work like arowbort, no back born, shame on you
Buses have nothing to do with the shooting. All we need is a report of who did that. Just be frank with the report.
There is definitely a very serious problem with Zambia police. Can Zambia police now please impound all those chiefs that accompanied Chitotela or is it Chitalu Chilufya to court.
You people should be talking about arresting of the killers not ma rubbish aya.
What offence did they commit??
Did Sata die with Zambia and left us with Congo as country to live in? Zambia didn’t have such kind of behavior, it was a country which every national worldwide was desiring.
Bashi Wana Mondela you cn say that again bro
Annie Sota Chisenga This country has become something else my sister
Bashi Wana Mondela mwandini its heart breaking
It’s because of your votes. Keep going tribalism and you’ll continue dancing.
Vote differently next year.
This foolish woman always masquerades as a Christian on Sundays and yet a very unreasonable and useless one
My question is esther really comfortable with these statements she’s making or she does it out of duty to her masters
Are we still in Zambia??? Te mu Congo fye muno?
These guys I think something is wrong in there heads. There thinking capacity is always on reverse
Does she know what she is doing?
Why?????
This is the most dull spokes person… On what grounds are they impounding
No kind words for such people.
Zonse ninthanwi.
Jones Mukanda I think her grade 12 results were just nkoli zeka zeka
Sairi Jonson ????
Sairi Jonson is she drunk ? I think ms tear gas makes people not think bwino bwino.
Jones Mukanda they behave the same as sewerage workers
Sairi Jonson kkkkkkkk
Jones Mukanda sikopodonono gets affected
Sairi Jonson really how can she say like that. Impounding ma buses.kaya
Jones Mukanda confusion, ubwekabweka basi
Sairi Jonson Exactly
Now it is confirmed. We have the ZP as a PF Militia. They have been a militia since this PF regime came into office. The ZP are daily creating rules and laws that only exist in their own rotten heads with their supremo thug in statehouse. These killings are well rehearsed because we have all seen some of these militia dressed up in Sniper suits, known as Ghillie suits in order to impose their own sick government onto Zambians via guns and bullets. Their buying of all those machines of war was not to make them ready to defend Zambia from the invasion of foreign soldiers, but to herd Zambians into slavery while they ate and dined our stolen loot and the foreign illegal loans that they shared among themselves.
When did being hired to transport people become a crime?
What crime did they commit?
Start with buses that transported caders to the magistrate court when CC was appearing there
I cant wait to see this in court. They were hired anything illegal about that? For me the only liable person here is the person that hired them . Good luck at tht
Iwe muzimai sometimes you should sit down and think before saying all those things. The drivers need money and if someone hires their buses why should they refuse? Just tell us about the report chapwa
Can the president look for suitable people in some of these offices
What law would the Police use to impound the 32 buses? What crime did the Bus Owners/Drivers Commit? Did the Drivers of these Buses give the Police orders to use live ammunition to kill the two victims. Ester Katongo is desperate to find a Scapegoat for the killings. The ZPS Command should accept responsibility for the shootings and apologise to the Nation.
In great east road we owez have buses interrupting traffic full of pf cadres and even on top of buses and now just a few upnd well behaved sympathisers ati impounding mr lungu God sees everything and time will come after you ,enjoy the moment as it lasts
Instead of investigating real issues
Impounding the buses Vs apprehending the Murderer.
Use that valuable energy to bring the killer to book. That’s what people are interested in. Please dont work against the interests of the people.
Escalation of commitment……
Impound busses and give them what charge? This kind of thinking is only for grade 7 drop outs
if my bus is booked and I do business what crime has I committed????????Zambian law che
This is complete and utter nonsense … cheap rubbish coming from an incompetent and compromised police service
Impounding isn’t enough. Do it the ZRA way…..forfeit to the state…….from now on and auction them after one week to expose them.
This I laughable. Can we be serious for once.
It’s a good move bcoz pipo were busy saying cadres just paid solidarity yet there were being mobilized and provides with transport and when tayali said hh is to be blamed he got insulted we need to know who hired and paid for those buses is the one to blame the deaths of inoccent lifes
Lives are being lost because of this under five politician. They don’t care who dies until they start loosing their close associates. HH has assets in South Africa and elsewhere, the blind just follow. He is safe and could cross borders anytime and they will remain here suffering.
Lives are being lost because of this under five politician. They don’t care who dies until they start loosing their close associates. HH has assets in South Africa and elsewhere, the blind just follow. He is safe and could cross borders anytime and they will remain here suffering.
Nonsense. This govt is curse. We urgently need another national day of prayers
What about the Chakwela Makumbi buses that took people to ransack the ceremony? Bali mu wire?
I see
????? but pa Zed aweee mwee
But why impound buses? They
Were not pre warned not to ferry
Supporters.Just catch officers who pulled the triggers.Why give
Guns to disperse crowds?Lastly
Zambians are very fearfull that
One canister of teargas can make
Any crowd scatter.
Trying to see the sense in all this…impounding buses then what? Trying to frustrate opposition support is not the way. Can’t take people s liberties and freedom to express or conduct livelihoods and businesses and expect to things to pleasant. Highly inappropriate behavior from an institution mandated to uphold the law. SMH?
Its not necessary!!!!, let’s look at how best we can improve not tit for tat
To serve yourselves further embarrassiments find the killer/s and give the nation the answer’s want to know not all these unnecessary and unprofessional attitude you projecting.Dictatorship is creeping in faster than you’re required to Do.
Bus owners should rush to court.
Insoni ebuntu
Can’t wait to see the back of you
Did you impound when PF Cadres excot Dr chitalu chilufya
Tell us the killers not that
Mawee Eloli Eloli, is she a comedian??
What a shame . Running out of ideas to justify impunity and injustice.
Mawee Eloli Eloli, is she a comedian?? Looks like she has watched a lot of comedies, the buses used were not armoured buses Esther!!
Cry my beloved country ?…
Do not shift the goal post. Deep down your heart, you know the right thing to do.
There are serious issues you can attend to
For what ,Zambia also, what rubbish I that . Own ip to ypur mistakes you bloody fools
Chisanga Mukupa unbelievable Bullshit!
Kelvin Kalikeka bus he what has happened to Ba Zambia, nabatudelela even the old kopala we had cared about the whole Zambia noti ishipulumushi tulemona.
Chisanga Mukupa We are a mediocre nation Boss,its very Sad…
Kelvin Kalikeka sad indeed
Really! Could we really act any dumber!
Where are the culprits who shot two people to death???we don’t care about the buses deal with the contentious issue at hand then buses story will come later on after the culprits are brought to book
Those buses were hired. They are owned by Zambians who just wanted money.
That is theft .
We are not interested we want the killers of nsama nsama and kaunda are you telling us that upnd has no support in lusaka urban can they fail to organise themselves within unles they farry cardres to kafue and chilanga
What’s the charge for impounding the buses? Some thinking is just imbecile level, Ala?
Go for the guy who told them to attend the police when clear message was sent advising them not to.
Your days are numbered
But how will they know the exact buses
What’s the connection with the cold blood killing of innocent Zambians?
Buses are operated as business or income generating tool, so would they refuse to be hired by opposition in ?? honesty, what’s this ????
Nonsense
Mangelepa
Iyi yena naikosa
Is the shorter hinding in one of buses for them to be impounded
Remember that no situation is permanent here on Earth tah
And cut people’s source of income someone needs therapy
This will be a very good case in court. Is this desperation or stupidity on the part of the police? Are bus owners no it in business? When did it become a crime for a bus to be hired to ferry people from one place to another ? Case in point is so many times people have been ferried to the courts of law to give solidarity to their leaders and we have never heard the police impounding the same buses. Did they carry mukula logs or chamba?
????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
Don’t interfere as business is business in this very sick PF economy
I am beginning to wonder how those buses contributed to the fracas. We have seen other cadres in town on top of buses but they have never apprehended them. Could these be last kicks of a dying horse?
As if they carried bush meat ?
Honestly i feel ashamed to be Zambian in this time & age,so much is not making sense anymore in my motherland,anyone who wakeup on the wrong side of the bed can make his/her on rule’s & law’s & it goes no objections to that is it a free follow of dead ideas or it’s proper reasoning that is lacking here please enlighten me i’am disgusted to say the least.
Instead of looking for killers you are busy talking about inpoundung buses what’s wrong with you
Stretching issues unnecessarily when we could be thinking progressively.
????again i say….. wow. This statement is beyond comprehension. It would be good to take this matter further with the courts of law. Where in the constitution is this action stipulated. Maybe i have missed it.
I wonder what traffic offense the buses committed
Brenda Sikaceya Muwaika don’t even go that far. Was there any breach of the law(s) and if there was which law(s) were breached and by whom? This is really laughable!!??
Buses shud not be impounded since them they were doing business let the govt ad group provide a report on what happened ad the one who assasinated those two pipo.
Is this the REPORT president Lungu demanded to have by 28 December 2020, from Zambia police over their killing of two innocent Zambians?
Madam; go home and cry…the entire Police Departmnt is a wish…Have you failed to solve a simple crime committed by your own. You are an embarrassment.
Lungu please do your job. Fire the IG and the balloon head Ho Affaires Mini.
The buses have nothing to do with this crime. This is another scare tactic orchestrated by kampyongo. We can see through that fool. What a shame.
Taking politics to another level. I wonder where we are going
I don’t know weather to cry or laugh!
Kelvin Kalikeka “Both” Lol…..this is very funny. lnstead of releasing the report Kateka told them to do by Monday 28th….regarding the killing of 2 people. They went on to impound buses which fetched UPND supporters for what?
Kampamba Kampamba its a disaster to say the least!
Kampamba Kampamba What law did they use to impound the buses. Utter lawlessness
Just wait, you time will come to answer to the ICC for crimes against humanity and to God for sins of slander, murder and hated!!!
For what. So the buses will disclose the killers
Chi mulomo!
I heard there were busses too at Chitalu Chilufya’s issue. Were they impounded too?
Fyabupuba ifi.
Just diverting us from your atrocities
Kwati kapuba!!
Koma bakapokola besu batulooo mwe! How will this help the murder cases! Abasungu batila locking the barn after the horse has bolted
How low can these PF fools get? come next year, you madam will be impounded!
This is why we say these people are very dull and backward = these buses were hired on business.These are the police officers of PF
Meanwhile no report issued. Lord take charge, whatever wrong we did, forgive us please
This is comedy now, tomorrow you will hear that we have closed the road they used when coming to the police station
Now ZP is a partisan organization deflecting from their own guilt of killings . Let’s impound all their guns instead of those buses.
Honestly madam surely is that what zambians wants to hear.give them a report to what transpired, maybe after all those buses were on business and making daily cashing
Police Spokesperson Esther Katongo do you know who your PAYMASTER is, Lungu will be gone in a few months. Watch this space.
We don’t need to remind you that, the more than 200 comments above are coming from your masters. Zambia is a fully fledged democracy, those brutal ideas you are getting from Zimbabwe will cost you.
Have the policemen that got live ammunition in that day retired the unused ones? If so arrest all those that retire less than what they signed out for as your killers is one who fired their live ammunition.
Inspector General of police Kakoma Kanganja has revealed that he is no longer in charge of the security situation in the country as all his powers have been taken over by Home Affairs Minister Stephen Kampyongo and Edgar Lungu’s Special Advisor for Corruption Kaizar Zulu
Kanganja says he is being ordered on daily basis to release the Zambia Police uniforms to Stephen Kampyongo and Kaizar Zulu for the PF security wings who are not even trained.
“If you look at the situation in Sesheke bye election violence, these are not my officers. These are PF thugs from Lusaka and Copperbelt who have been given heavy weaponry and police uniforms. They are being heavily armed ahead of the 2021 elections. As police command, we have no control.
You saw in that video what Mr. Kampyongo saying. He was…
The police should just keep quiet. Such utterances is mockery to the masses when evidence is overwhelming of what transpired. If this is happening for the first time we can understand but the shooting has been recurring.
The days for PF and its cardes in uniform are coming to an end soon. So ladies and gentlemen get ready to answer when the time comes. We only have one Country called Zambia.
@Apst Aubrey Muzaza, I know you mean well. However, I want to point out that the word ‘leadership’ and PF can not be used in the same sentence. Night and day don’t mix. It’s either dark or light. One can never say, it was light at night. It just doesn’t make sense like PF.
This country is has been taken over by a minority;selfish,corrupt,biased and dictatorial individuals ??????Lord come to our rescue.
Barking the wrong tree,madam police spokesperson.A movie showing police running around would be nice to watch.
Caderism at it’s best.Keep it up Zambia Poor.
Excellent move. Impound those buses. Maybe it will serve as a deterrent.
Thanks!
Edgar Lungu, Kampyongo, Kanganja, Katongo – if any of you have an iota of a brain please tell me what you are expected to happen when police fired live ammunition at people? I am sure it is not difficult even for a dull lawyer, money changer and corrupt cops to see the result. Honorable thing is to go and apologize to the surviving relatives and to the public. Then accept responsibility for once.
This is how low this country has sunk. Off course led by low life! One thing for sure, we are too slow in Zambia. In other jurisdictions this nonsense would have been put to an end either through civil disobedience or fight backs.
The report was simple IG said he was on leave and it was Bonny in charge. Bonny said he was busy with Bowman requests it was Nelson Phiri in charge, Nelson said he was drunk with Jameson and didn’t know what he did and Ester should know. All that Ester saw from under the Bowman Belly were buses. We need the buses to her memory! Hope this explains the obsession with buses!!
So the repression continues? What was the offence here? Some more rubb.ish being spewed even after the loss of lives. PF transports people all over the country all the time – including providing escort to their leaders to court. Today you murder innocent citizens in cold blood and want to ‘apportion blame’ on buses? What a clueless compromised Police used as tools by equally clueless, visionless so-called leaders