FTJ Labels London Judgement Racist

1. Inshimbi ni nshimbi,

2. “Cowboy” politics with destruction of an independent judicial system! Sovereignty sold to the dogs!

3. Racism……. anyway atleast FTJ has accepted that the money Smith is talking about were Gifts and Donations from Friends.

4. He’s just a thief who deserves to be locked up! If he is innocent as he claims, let him defend himself by justifyng how his so called friends gave him $41 million.

5. Well if FTJ can prove the source of the monies he will be free to go. He must also remember that his life is not private being one time president of our country ZED
   and please provide receipts or any other documents to verify your claims.
   The truth sets us free Our Lord Jesus said.

6. Kayata,Iam gobsmacked,the lawyers representing Chiluba are they not members of LAZ?How come they never saw what stephen lungu is talking about in as much as he sounds immature and unprofessional,the reciprocal treaty? Its time even lawyers who mislead their clients are locked up for misrepresentation of facts and wrong advice.In all transparency FTJ has grounds to suspect teaming up of so many people(LPM,lungu etc) to just have FTJ nailed down.And today we are told that this chikwa court has slammed FTJ with a criminal case $488,000,which Smith has already dealt with.The whole thing looks like misapplication of justice to gain political mileage.This judgement would have carried much more meaningful weight had it been carried out through our court system.LPM had betrayed the national trust.The President is under oath but in this fight it appears there is alot of collaborative team work to selected pursuits.It has worked out nagatively on FTJ and will work positively for Kashiwa.

7. FTJ not all is lost continue reading ,Psalms 31 only God knows your destiny.

8. Some people look clever now because they are in government today but let them leave office tukabamona.Worse still they don’t even know how to talk kwati teba…..They say “he who laughs last laughs loudest”.Fili ukotuleya 2011 pepi.VIVA Well meaning Zambians.

9. Chilumba…. These members of LAZ (Lungu, Kunda, Silwamba,Malambo and LPM etc)had teamed up to nail FTJ. Wasn’t Silwamba and Malambo lawyers for FTJ, till LPM threatened and confiscated their houses? These Lawyers are inept as SAGE calls them,but they are lazy and greedy too. Chiluba has become an enemy of the state, and true i agree with you that lawyers should be locked up for giving misrepresentation of facts and advice,or they should lose their practising licences as the case with Medical Doctors and Surgeons.You oncementioned that they were 169 cases that were reduced to 23..Hey thats unbelievable anywhere in the world. What i think FTJ should do is challenge his case in UK,since he has lost his immunity, because that its where he had been sued for the $488000 case. Oooh,sorry there is another simila one in chikwa..A real duplication.This is the reason why LPM was excited when removing the FTJ’s immunity.Was LPM under oath for exposing that Zamtrop account?

10. FJT is one of the greatest political orators Zambia has ever produced. I envy his political engineering skills and his fighting spirit. He is really a master dribbler par excellency and can turn white into black.

    While nearing everyone including on this blog are of the view that he and his group misapproriated government funds, save for the debate on the London jurisdiction, the man has come out fighting.

11. Chilumba, FTJ has claimed that the money Smith is talking about were Gifts and Donations.So there should be no problem him tapping from the donation box. He is blaming racism,i have not seen any racist remarks from Smith.

12. My dear M.Daka, did you know that dribblers are crooks?so are lawyers. Dont envy people who drible,because the main reason of dribling is to confuse and divert from the main purpose of goal. Driblers just what to confuse the players and they know their aim or goal.

13. Daka,today its not about FTJ, we are looking at it from so many angles that will justify future implementation of credible policies in order to pursue equal in mutual respect that is wholly secured by law.The idiosyncrasies prevailing in our nation must not be allowed to blossom and call for prudent measures that will entail sovereignity and independence.As long as the reciprocal treaty in place, as to when it was enacted is a 60million dollar question,but I guess this was done under LPM’s rule otherwise FTJ would have been aware of it.
    Daka, there are so many dribblers at play,its not only FTJ,Kayata above has named the other master dribblers dribbling the King of Dribblers.Daka let us not rejoice today cos FTJ is nabbed,let us be objective, clear, remove all ambigulties,open minded,sincere,truthful in the dispensation of good governance practices.Policies designed to witch hunt others are not only retrogressive but are a source of evil.

14. Ms Daka and Bro Kayata. i know have disagreed on the Perter Smiths Jurisdiction. FTJ mad one interesting point during his so called press conference. Can he prove that the money in question was actually donated to him? if we have records of how the money was spent there should be records of where the money came from. I’m asking FTJ to do this not legitimise Peter smiths jurisdiction but for us the Zambian people so that we can have a clear mind of what is going on.In my opinion FTJ shouldnt appeal the Judgement. He should disregard Peter Smith.I want to see how the high court will enfoce this judgement legally. May be when Mulongoti said the criminal case is still going on in the subordinate court he ment the Hight court is subordinate to the London Court.If FTJ has to appeal the case does he appeal in the Rayal supreme court or to the subordinate.Ms Daka my sister enlighten me.

15. Please dont leave “Tru Zedian” anywhere near Levy, the worst can happen depending on who is physically stronger. obviously she can kiss FTJ if she is a lady….joke

16. SAGE,I would be grateful if the guys representing FTJ made a statement.We need to know what is happening in our country.Those two gentlemen Simeza and Sangwa are well versed with law and I cant believe they overlooked the obvious.Asking Kayata or Daka as to where FTJ will appeal is neither here not there what it means if there is a treaty then judgement is binding,like what exists between UK and USA.Its a head cracking riddle for lawyers representing FTJ and a great lesson to all.

17. hey guys, when will we come out of defensive and tribal thinking? it may sound strong and judgemental but we all know deep down that british legal system is expensive but reliable. Even a blind can see that Chiluba stole…see his designers cloths, matching crocodile skin shoes, jacket hankie, rolex watch…shameless ex-President showing off when he could not give meagre increments to civil servants who put him to power. Zambia is a rich country inhabited by poor people…why? Don’t we work? Don’t we have hardworking men and women? don’t we have forward-looking enterprising men and women? NO, no such problem, only one snag….Too much dependency on so-called leaders we put them to power whether at chief level, paramount chief level, provincial minister, minister and so on, they suddenly become “All-Know” CHIEFS and do us favours by not creating jobs but creating power base comprised of tribalists, defensive hooligans and yesmen/women and giving out doles.

    Let all thieves go to jail

18. I we Ka-Ngosa, if you shared the money with Ka Kafupi, hard lack for you, worse still if you had wishes of no guilty Judgement. These characters are a crook and nothing they says make sense. Chiluba is fighting a bigger ‘Chigayo’ and he will be grinded to pulp. The whole Nation except his close allies, cronies, thieves and possibly afflicted tribesmen are in Chiluba’s corner.

    Chiluba has been caught pants down..The K10pin he stole in early days, the Certificates he stole and his refusal of his biological father has come to haunt him..
    Many more cases coming soon.By year 2011, all thieves will be reduced to size and will have reduced influence in Zambian politics

    Lock them all.

19. Who are we to judge?

20. HK, dont bring tribalism in this blog. We debating this issue as civilized Zambians and each one of is entitled to his or her opinion. Francis you are my name sake i’m also Francis. Sangwa and his friends can not make a statement. because as far as they are concerned there was no trial. One other Thing all of you guys the president has a right to choose what ever shoe he wants and the government pays for it . That is part of the conditions of service. He does not pay for food, housing,tranport etc. and there is no stipulation which says he can not buy a Rolex. On the issue of FTJ spending money on his kids abroad , that also was his entitlement as president. IF you are going to bring up shoes and suites i would suggest you go write your civics exams in grade nine.

21. Its impossible to recover any such money. Stop the legal expenses that only effectively channeling our meagre resources to Nchito and other lawyers pretending to be fighting corruption.

    I fail to appreciate that pursuing $41 mn is worth it. HK and others fueling this appetite for FTJ’s blood, dont lie to us that your wife always knows to last penny what you spend at the bar? There’s a degree of reasonableness in misappropriation that you can tolerate. To me 41million over 10 years is within that. The intelligence service operates with such idiosyncratic practices its impossible to tease out the theft from geniune secret service operations.

    Also, is this the issue that’s gonna take our national time and energy the entire period of this Presidency?
    Money was stolen but you need to move on!

22. HK you are the most backward chap on this blog, this time and age no one talks on lines of tribe, if you are tribal shame on you, let me bring you down to intellectual reasoning,you dont need GMAT to understand basic issues like the one above.I have never shared in FTJ’s loot neither will I ever do,what the bone of contention here is the jurisdiction,precedence and final judgement surrounding FTJ.All we want is an equipose , the true facts and picture surrounding this judgement both at home and UK.Some people like you HK have never had a chance to reason so everything to you is blared.Mind you its the first time it has happened in the history of Zambia so if you are an ERUDITE CHAP JUST ENLIGHTEN US INSTEAD OF ENGANGING YOUR MOUTH BEFORE THE BRAIN.God bless You in your fulsome

23. HK ulicikopo sana,mwati waliya nakusukulu iwe,Chilumba is the most anlytical on this blog and doesnt just yap things from nowhere, they contain substance.Weshiluwe kapeneuko kukulima Tower na Chibuku.Try read widely if you have to find worthwile contributions on this blog.Emulate Daka and Kayata.Na Ba Joze bakucila amano.
    HOw can you bring tribal issues?You are the chaps polluting Zambia with such stupid issues.Grow up and know that on this blog we are one despite our beliefs and convictions.You are cursed

24. Russia has the so called Oligarchies – people who enriched themselves after the fall of the Soviet empire. Zambia also seems to have its own share of these. The only difference is in the scale of the amounts they have stolen. Also the Russian variety have set up pretty impressive businesses that are today powering the Russian economy. Unfortunately our lot are too stupid to even hide their tracks. All they rely on is saying “I am innocent” believing that if they say it enough times, we will also believe them. Sorry comrade Kafupi you are a thief. You have turned evading Zambian courts into an art form. Fortunately the British Judicial system has a lot of capacity to conclude cases much quicker than their financially strapped Zambian counterparts. Your case has lasted more that 5 years in the Zambian courts and some of us are tired of seeing you putting up two fingers at us. Well done Smith! May we have more of this.

25. Chiluba didnt steal that money by himself, did he?

26. Ba Chitapankwa,dont remind us of the thefts,we are trying to learn something out of this issue?What has this taught knowing that you belong ku Chipango? Because even Chiefs who steal will be tried in London for stealing from their subjects?So chief tell us what this tells you vis a vis your chiefdom.

27. Zona Chiluba is a thief. So what next ?

28. imwe bantu, what is our problem? CHILUBA IS A THIEF not a master dribbler or engineer, he belongs in jail with samuel musonda, xavier Chungu et all. here is a man who went beyond the word selfishness, $1.2M for his clothes. he came in at a time when zambians had said enough was enough. we wanted a new direction. Who was he trying to imitate, Imelda marcos? or was it Mobuto. with chiluba there was no gorvenment, it was a kaponya style of leadership.now here is the beutiful part, he claims friends gave him over $9m dollars,but today he also claims that he cannot afford decent travel to SA for his medication? I wish that he dies a terrible death!!!!

29. death by hanging!!! ka kawalala

30. MK and Tikki you are sadists.You deserve more sympathy than anger.How dare you say that? You sound like you are from Mugabe’s regime,Zambia has no such characters moderate yourselves before we deport you.You are even lucky to be on this fora

31. Chilumba, forgive this chap called HK,for he has no clue on what is happening or has any idea. Because of people like him have we seen Genocides in Rwanda and other parts of the world. Anyway,atleast those know what they are doing but HK is even unaware of where he is.

32. SAGE, you are correct,FTJ should appeal to the above court in the land that set the judgement. FTJ only has the title to his head,but he is as good or bad as any other Zambian citizen,therefore he has no protection not to appear before any court in this world, be it civil or criminal.
    Chilumba, since FTJ was sued in the London courts, what is his fear of appearing before the said court. I see nothing wrong with him before the London courts, except for transparency of which FTJ knows and hence does not want to appear before that court. In Zambia,he knows like SAGE has mentioned that the lawyers are inept, so the case will drag on and adjournments will never end. Ok, if the Zambian govt decided to drop the similar case in Chikwa will he appear before the London courts to defend himself.

33. Bro Kayata,HK has been forgiven but we need people like him who need to be trained interms of reasoning.These are the chaps who never passed special paper 1& 2, so verbal reasoning doesnot exist in their vocabulary and shall continue to suffer from megalomania if left unchecked.

34. Kayata,I still believe FTJ is being guided by his legal experts,dont forget there are credible legal practioners who have been charged with him, am sure they are doing their homework.I still dont believe FTJ can present himself before Smith.Fun enough law has so many loopholes that is why we see lawyers defeating each other over the same piece of law and then the presiding judge appearing to be more knowledgeable than his learned collegues.Its a roller coaster ride.We shall just wait and see the next unfolding events at the expiry of 14 days.What is surprising is FTJ has agreed to have put $9m in a secret service account so when Levy took over was he told about it under oath?Apparently LPM might have used data given to him by FTJ in confidence and so it as chance to fix the chap…Iam just speculating, cos he sounded so confident when lifting the man’s immunity.Mind you FTJ is a proud man,he has caterigorically refused to recognise SMith’s judgement

35. Chilumba,You are right.It seems that Doctor left many patients without the prescribed medicines.

36. Guys ,thinkers on this blog guys that can analyse issues and spit out great ideas the likes of : daka, kalyata and hk, and francis ngosa.Lets keep it real, we all know were we are from and most of us have stories to tell about our economic livelihoods in zed .Chiluba has no doubt embezzled the zambian tax payer funds, yes when K.K left state house the economy was not at its best since 1964, but it was a whole lot better than when chiluba left , guys need i remind you of how much a u.s $ was to a zed kwacha in 1992.mwebanesu we can not keep on running away from tha fact that ba F.T.J and his minions have stolen from us, where on earth does one make $105,000 and spends over a million dollars on linens? , lets be real.The judgment in the U.k gives but a small piece of cake in what F.T,J has stolen.How can my fellow zambians be living on less than a $1 a day while some one in public service is spending a million on suites.F.T.J has to pay for his deeds or we shall forever see corruption.

37. chilumba
    Pride is what has eaten chiluba up , had dude given in and atleast gave back what would considered “75%” of our ziggers by the government things would have been much better for him.Am a law student in the U.S and from my little experince and studies, chiluba does not have many options he may refuse to accept smith’ ruling on his case but under the law that means nothing unless he apeals.As at now smith’ ruling stands until f.t.j apeals,as for the chikwa courts issue they have a right at this point to commence legal proceedings on that case .We all mr chilumba sympathise with F.T.J but only to some extent, lets let the law for once take its turn on our leaders even lpm should he mess up.

38. No spin doctoring Ba Ngosa. Chiluba’s pigeon hole is getting smaller everyday. Chiluab and his lawyers had a lot of assumptions, and took chance of silence and forgot that they had initially entered defence.

    What is interesting is that, When this Judgement is entered in our own courts, The state will start persuing the claim on Chiluba and his co-accused.

    The intereting part is that, We have already identified some assets dotted around Europe and the caribbeans which will liquidated. Some of these assest were being held in lieu for Chiluba.

    Ka Mudala is in trouble…Very soon he would not be able to secure any Visa to travel to Europe..He will have no house, and the Clothes..Ifigamba Fikatampa..Then Regina akapola…

39. Mwe baku Kitwe,you sound like you have just woken up from Kitwe,people have moved a step further,people are discussing the technicalities involved inlight of FTJ’s revelations.We all have read and know that FTJ embezzled,this indesputable but people have widened horizons of reasoning.Iam enjoying the above discussion just fill yourselves in mweba ku Kitwe Ku Buchi

40. My Brother Chilumba,lawyers are just funny and crazy, they say “1+1=2, but it’s not always that 1+1=2”.
    The European courts states that if the other State is the State of origin of the person sentenced and has declared itself willing to accept responsibility for the enforcement of that sanction or if it considers that it cannot itself enforce the sanction, then the Zambian govt will enforce it. FTJ has said that money Smith is talking about were donations and gifts, therefore he was not stealing but taking advantage of it, because that was one of his privileges. He has not denied taking the money but what he said was he was privileged to use it for the sole purposed intended for it.

41. Comments 36&37 you sound enlightened,if you have followed my argument,Iam sypathetic for one reason cos I feel the man irrespective of his attrocities he has not been fairy treated both from his legal attorneys on one side to the other(LPM).We are dealing with a man who led the nation and this has great implications for the Presidency.I still dont believe that had LPM chose to dialogue and persuade his collegue to return the stolen loot the man would have refused.Its a bad thing to steal but at the same time, even in courts of law when a person mitigates leniency is always excersised.Mind you the start of these cases was 169 trimmed by Chikwa courts to 23 and eventually to SMith’s final nailing.I would be happy if you enlightened me of the flow of the sequence in the event that FTJ doesnot appeal, if he intends he will appear under which court?Lungu mentioned that they will enter into league with the local court to pursue the issue, meaning there is no system put in place yet.

42. Ba Anonymous
    you can say tuli baku buchi and the like , but hey that has nothing to do with what we are discussing here, people are contributing to a constructive issue iwe watampa ifya bu wele wele, its people like you who look down on people from shanty townships that cause us even more harm.Kula and get on board.

43. Kayata, you are very right even aba Ku kitwe when he finishes his law school he will join the band wagon.
    What is interesting as you say FTJ has agreed to have received the dough and put it under secret services account,an account for the state , but what SMith directly attributed to clothes etc is $488,000,so meaning $8.6m is still in the account so transtively the man has to pay $16.4m since the other $21m includes his co accused.

44. I just feel sorry for FTJ because even his lawyers are not telling him the truth except to give him legal charges.

45. chilumba
    I certainly can not tell you what the flow of events would be if chiluba ever decided not to apeal,these are my speculations though; in the event that chiluba does not apeal the G.R.Z would have every right to freeze all his accounts and properties in the U.K ( main reason why the u.k was enganged in this case), secondly he as lungu said could be declared bunkrupt in zed terms he may be asked to surrender even what he owns in zambia amounting to what the government is seeking.Can he apeal ? yes he can ,F.t.j has refused to accept judge smith’ ruling so we know he most likely won’t apeal in the u.k, but he can still apeal in zambian courts seeing the case is being brought to the zambian high court for judgment .Am sure you and i agree the case is complex and it could be lengthy if he ever decides to apeal.

46. Mwebaku Kitwe, find a shorter id, now you have seen my line of argument, and many thanks for your foresight.My argument has always and will always be that I never saw to start with the need to use SMith to preside over this case,because at the end of it all it will be the local courts to execute this judgement.All alternatives were not exhausted before taking this case to UK.The chief justice and his cohorts would have made a special tribunal similar to court marshall to try FTJ in the much same way as SMith did at a more faster pace since they had all the facts and pass judgement the same way Smith did.Its this unnecessary complication which I find useless,time and resource wasting, and not fit for purpose

47. Anto SAGE, Indy calling. It surely would be unethical for FTJ to disclose the source of these donations. Firstly, he was running a governemnt and not his house. Sources of funding in politics is one factor that many governments worldwide do not disclose. Well wishers are abundant, no matter the motive. Zambia lacks and even lacked resources to attain all goals set up. Secondly, he has rightly pointed out that these donations were made into the ZAMTROP account, an intelligence-equivalent account whose operations must be kept from the public domain. Third, FTJ was not foolish enough to maintain huge amounts in a personal account coz he knew things like this would surface. FTJ and KK are the only mature Presidents we have had. There are things in govt. that not anybody should be aware of. LPM may have had the urge to fight corruption, but his execution lacked foresight. This is just a time bomb waiting to explode. FTJ has nothing to lose when he names LPM as a beneficiary. What will

48. Chilumba my brother…. why was FTJ sued in the UK?

49. KC, are you suggesting we impeach LPM?

50. continued.

    happen when he reveals the role LPM has played i.e. his ascendency to power. FTJ is truly a politician. He knows what confusion that will create. This man loves his country. Zambians will call for LPM’s blood and in that vain create a very hostile environment for the people. Confusion will surely reign as people will call for LPM to resign. Personally, the crusade LPM has started is good for now and the future. He started it at the wrong person and time. He needed to begin legislation to curb these vices. You cannot climb a tree from the top. How can he explain his K200m FRA debt repayment within a miraculous time frame? How can he account for all the money he received from Plot 1 to campaign? How can he explain the govt. vehicles being used by the MMD. FTJ has asked alot salient questions which we need to analyse critically. If LPM was not interested in becoming President from stolen money, he would have backed out at that point.

51. LPM must be very careful with the way he betrays his colleagues. All I can is that God rules in the affairs of men. Ba Post newspapers are so full of anger and hatred and they tend to think they own Zambia. All in all God can change seasons for anyone including Chiluba and that is why we must be very careful the way we are going as a nation. Remember how seasons changed in 1990/1991. Please don’t forget how seasons changed again in 2001.

52. chilumba, my thought is that the zambian courts are not seen as incompetant by G.R.Z, but the circumstances that led them to sue him under smith’ court are that , most of the evidence was in the U.K , lets not forget there is a law firm being held somehow accountable for these dealings in the U.k and am sure they were findings in their firm that helped in coming to this conclussion by smith.Yes my dear bro it would have been cheaper and better trying F.T.J in zed courts.About the length of the case, mr chilumba you know much as i know that nothing so far has come out of our own chikwa courts since they started the cases, how many years now? .Honestly did smith’ take longer than our own. There is a saying in law realm that states that justice is not cheap, justice for the zambian people in this case has not come cheaply but it will definately work in our favor as we will have less plunderers, its time we started respecting the law regardless of what office we hold

53. Kayata, FTJ will be forced to make revelations which will shake the very foundations and integrity of Plot 1. Every dog has it’s day and LPMs’ is not too far

54. Truly Zambian, you have made a well thought out analogy. Seasons come and go. LPM has created a monster he will live to regret

55. Thats what ‘US’ Zambians want..Let Chiluba spill the beans and plot 1 will be cleaned for Good.. Thanks to LPM for taking the initiative and liberating us from thieving presidencies pretending they are protecting us.

56. KC,what do we do to LPM for breaching and leaking State secret’s? Do we impeach him now or remove his immunity after he has come of Plot 1?

57. Kc I do not know where you are but politicians in the US have a duty to reveal sources of funding. Secondly, we would be interested in knowing why someone donated over410M dollars to chiluba?

58. Ba HK, why do we have a constitution? and why should you be praising LPM, when he has set his own trap?

59. Fwe baku Kitwe, it is not about how long Chikwa courts are taking in FTJs trial. He is facing criminal charges which have to proved beyond any reasonable doubt. A civil case, such as the one presided over by umusungu, is easy to prove. Even if the evidence is scanty, you can secure a judgement in favour of the plaintiff.

60. KC that is a well thot of analysis,FTJ at this time has nothing to loose,they are the same lawyers who say accepting stolen goods is equally offensive, in my language we say ‘ukufilila munsenga’ and alot of unpalatable developments will unfold which will not be good for our country, indeed.
    Mweba Ku Kitwe ,I know time has been an issue that is why I suggested something similar to a court marshall.Its illogical to say because this is where the transactions took place,Zanaco had the same records Smith used to arrive at his judgement nothing changed in terms of evidence.Where did Smith get his eveidence from the Attorney General of Zambia so why could the AG supplied data to Chikwa courts if they had wanted speedy trial?

61. TIKI, you are talking about during a campaign trail. I agree with you, but do you ever read about it in US newspapers that government has disclosed sources of funding. We are looking at Zambia as a country that had larger development needs than the coffers could support. We are looking at securing the borders of our country. We are talking about what can and cannot be for the public. This guy was running an entire gov. for crying out loud.

62. KC and TIKI its only in the US where dsclosure is a must for their own benefit.In the UK it never used to be like that until recently after the cash for honours saga that is when now all parties are being compelled to reveal their source of funding.Otherwise world over parties do not reveal their source of funding, cos its irrelevant to the equation.Its either you govern or you dont govern.That why HH was busy soliciting for funds for UPND and not for UDA.

63. TIKI, maybe the question is not why someone donated that kind of money to Zambia or FTJ. The question should be, If LPM truly led this crusade against corruption before he became President, WHY did he accept funding from unknown sources? If he is the moral person he purports to be, why in the world did he not question the sources of his funding to campaign. M.C. Sata has told you people that MMD as a party, as of September 2000, had no money, where did LPM get the money to campaign. BETRAYAL gentlemen

64. Thx Chilumba, at least you have hit the nail on the head. waiting to hear from TIKI

65. Finally some people who never thought they will have an audience have a place to speakout.Thanks to lusaka times but like everything pansaka tabula chiwelewele,again insaka is not complete without at least one ichiwelewele.long live levy abash kafupi

66. FTJ cannot appeal to a court that passed judgment in absentia. He cannot appeal to a court whose jurisdiction he feels is questionable. He cannot also appeal to the Zambian court over a case that Zambia never made a ruling about, for if he ever did, the whole thing becomes a circus. If you believe in the hijacked judicial system as I do I see no time will the President appear before either the British court or the Zambian court to appeal against the sentence in which he never ever appeared before. I also like the FTJ oratory stand when he says, “Jesus never made a mistake to choose Judas Escariot.” As many have observed we shall all be waiting to see the end game. All we ask for is to pray for our mother Zambia, after all when everything is gone and done we still shall have our One Zambia, One Nation.

67. The man knows his rights and he just spoke out in defense of himslef.Let the courts and Judge Smith prosecute Chiluba in a normal setting. Absentia trials are not logical anyway. Even if the man is Guilty he need to plea for himself with the attorneys by his side. This cases takes so long a time at long last the will just enter in to “nolle prosecule” if govt faills to substanciate their claims.

68. Am sorry guys,but I have to do this.I know this forum is like HH has put it,but right now I just have to cross the boundary…………….Daka,I think am in love with you.I really like intelligent women.They drive me crazy and turn me on a lot.Are you single?Am a single guy,well built,coz I do weight lifting,go to the gym thrice a week,play tennis on saturday and Sunday afternoons.I work and I need you..If you are based in Lusaka,lets meet over the weekend.Okay,can we have a date over the weekend?
    Pls,guys.don’t critise me on this way.You never know what life has in stock for you.Maybe The Girl Is Mine.This is also intellectual I suppose………..

69. People should learn a lesson from ftj

70. Will see what happens after the 14 days elapses.I dont think much will happen.Not even seizing of assets.I dont think FTJ is damn having released the information that monies were donation at this time. Most likely has proof they’re donations. That will be another case.Then the money will keep going down and the cases will keep reducing. If he will at all be found guilty of any case by 2011.It will only be less than 5 even nothing at all,his buying time.One thing we should not forget his a philosopher(master dribler)they must have worked out lots of things with his lawyers.To find him guilty LPM will be found guilty with him.It will also go back to the rigging of election in 2001,that LPM became president.And a lot of other cases together.I dont think LPM would like that.These cases involve lots of people even those who seem innocent at this time.This is where sata also accuses LPM of being a beneficiary of FTJ.If there is stolen money at all, LPM goes with FTJ.Sata likely has evidence.

71. Bane the whole world is laughing at us. First we do not trust our own Judicial system. Secondly, this is not helping our nation at all. WE MUST LEARN TO FORGIVE AND FORGET. That is how people move on.From the start FTJ was accused of stealing over $500 million and then the figure was reduced. Now we are at 40 million. Bane this will never end. Let the man alone and let him enjoy retirement. Whether we like it or not he has added more to our nation than the money he is accused of stealing.

72. I agree with you campbell. The man has to be left alone, moreover if he has stolen money at all lets leave him to use it to the developmet of our country.It pained me much when his institued was taken away from him this time it would have been given some people education whilst others employment. And many are crying for employment.If the money that was used for these cases on FTJ was used on projects of national development. Just try to visiualize what we would have been acheievd.Last time i mentioned of an african former president who sold a national park it was Salim Ahamad Salim of Tanzania. He sold part of the Tarangire national park among the bigest national park in east africa.sold to an Arab. They dealt with it themselves,forgave him and looked for progress go there this time Arusha is very much developed.And still developing and the country as a whole.Chiluba did good things for Zambia too.Anyhow lets see what justice has,appeal should be in zed if we are independent from uk.

73. One thing i have seen from many zambians is that we feel we can never achieve anything without the western world. we always want to be dependent on them.Even things of national developmet we always talk of foreign investors cant we do something on our own we do have the skills, and resources.Why always look for foreign people to do it for us??(see post zambia for yesterday).We must build that confidence in ourselves.Taking the case to uk is also another example.The people in the west when developing did they wait for foreign investors?
    come on guys it time to change our attitudes.
    Doing everthing own our own is the first step to real development and real indepedence.we can do it.

74. Guys, “Heff Jay Tee” is a thief. Let us not shield thieves. The chap failed to defend himself in London. Defending himself in Kabulonga will not do.
    If he is innocent as he claims to be, let him appeal to a higher court. But it has to be London!!

75. You cambell, so you want to forgive FJT, what of the others convicted of corruption ?. What of the fight aganist corruption ?. Common, this man with Chungu raped Zambia with Sata acting as lookout. Durring FJT’s tenure, corruption was a way of life. And another poor fool says $41M or $4.1M/Yr is ok for a president to personally wasite. Not even Blair is so Extravagant. May God help Poor Zambia.

76. I need help to understand what is happening, where is the SOVEREIGNITY of our beloved nation ZAMBIA??? How come London past verdict instead of our local courts (High court or supreme court). What about his medical status as at now what are the Doctors say about his health since it was reported that he was not fit for trial at the time? If found fit for trial what offecnces is that trial base on?? What we should not forget is that there is a RIGHTEOUS JUDGE who is GOD, and there is nothing that is hidden from him, we might not know a thing but God knows. May our current president not be the engineer of the judgement because his will await him. WE WANT TO SEE THE INDEPENDENCE OF OUR COUNTRY AND ALSO THE INDEPENDENCE OF OUR JUDICIARY IN ALL MATTERS. WE ARE A SOVEREIGN NATION, I BELIEVE WE HAVE NOT LOST THE SOVEREIGNITY AS AN INDEPENDENT NATION.

77. How can Chiluba be deciding whom we choose to help us recover our fortune from him? The London Court has done an excellent piece of work which every sane person should be happy about.

    Chiluba must know that it is absolutely immaterial who helps us achieve our goal. Rather, what matters is that we recover our stolen fortune. So, let him stop dribbling himself further into oblivion.

    Little man you stole and we need what belongs to us!!alot of Zambians died of depression after they lost money through Meridian BIAO,Union Bank and collapse of mines.You don’t even have the morals to show remorse?what kind of creature are you boy???

78. Positani, there is nothing fishy happening. Our learned Lawyers from LAZ have said that what has happened is not strange. Aquaint yourself with the reciprocal treaty and u will be better placed to comment. For now keep quiet!

    Let us not allow kafupi to use the issue of sovereignity to run away from the crime against the Zambian people. Chiluba should be the last person to comment on issues of sovereignity. The privatised everything we owner and up to now we do not know how the money was spent.

79. “Crucify?” dont use biblical terms anymore hypocrite!

80. Its all crap and why are we wasting time to discuss this? Its sickening and we dont need this. Where is Zambia going.

    Regardless of the legal jargon being applied by some contributors, the one thing that comes out of this is that Chiluba stole and he has to bring back the money.

    Whether the judge was racist or can not be proved by us. That is case for the moral court.

    Chiluba should tell why we should believe he never stole no conspiracy theories will set him free. He should stop these cheap allegations and bring back our money.

    To Zambians, please lets rid our country of these criminal pretending to be leaders. We must reduce the their influence on our politics. Lets vote for straight people.

81. …and to think I voted for this arrogant little thief!!!..

82. Though l dont know the extent to which FTJ and his associates plundered our economy l am proud to stand by him in condemening the Mwanawasa goverment in allowing his case to be tried by the British people.The man has sufferred enough. Leave him alone in his retirement. no matter on how much you try if the money was plundered it will never be returned to the zambian people. let us concentrate in protectijng ourselves from more plunderers .do you want to rest when he dies?then what?wil that be justice?

83. You guys, why are u wasting your time debating on something which straight forward issue. FTJ has said its donations money and has challenged the whole nation to check with auditors (Grant Thorton and them). Why dont you do just go and yourselves justice, verify with auditors, if u so much hate, than blowing yr heads off on blog. FJT is a very smart and elegant person naturely. Not like some of this scruffy Presidents you have nowdays. I am sure thats why even Judge Smith, instead of focusing on the judgement or issue which was at hand, he very much notice the elegance of FTJ. LPM is even now getting dontions, so what, is that stealing. Who among u will not accept gifts. By the way being short is not a disease, its God divine and its not like having ailment at plot 1.

84. Thank God, like HK says Chiluba is having sleepless nites.Its pay back time for him.For all those people that suffered after availing him the most opportinistic chance in the world.Ka chiluba is sturborn such that the small man is not able to show any remorse.Any gifts given to the president whilst incumbent are not personal and anything to the trust account has to be managed by the board of directors for that TRUST.All these cheap explanations are just last kicks of the dying horse.Regina start preparing to go to mpulungu and order some kapenta for reselling and chiluba start ukupimisha ubunga pa gate pamyenu.Otherwise ika puma.WHAT GOES AROUND COMES AROUND.

85. Silvester Mwanza (#82), thieves must not be allowed to rest. For your own info alot of people have died with hunger becoz of these same thieves u are protecting.

    it seems to me u dont understand the issue at hand. you are contradicting yourself. protecting ourselves from more plunderers starts with locking chiluba up.

    We care less whether we can get back the money stolen. What we care most is to make sure that justice is done. Thieves are locked up, put in jail where they belong!!

86. Silvester…its attitudes like yours that makes politicians the way they are…if he is seen to get away with this do you not think the next set of politicians wont do the same???..He needs to be jailed and at the same time so do his “unruly” children who still think the are something in Zambia!!!!!

87. It is good to see that we Zambians are openly debating such issues. For me the larger picture is that the future leaders will be more careful in dealing with public money… Let me reiterate a point I had made earlier, it does not matter where the case is heard, what matters is the integrity of our leaders. Nevertheless I do agree with the issue of confidence in our own judicial systems… But then remember that a significant protion of our national budget is covered by donor money (ie. British, American, French, Japanese, etc Tax payers’ money), so of course they will want to see justice done and will at best meddle…

88. am not protecting anyone l just feel that where the attention is supposed to be put, there is a deviation. my question is since the last five years, the money spent to pursue chiluba, do you think it could have saved lives by provision of good medical care, improve the quality of schools than digging on which we ca not change. That is why africa is poor because when our friends are busy looking ahead we are busy trying to get back at people who could have done some wrong to us 20 year back.

89. gk,(#84)
    ifyo walanda, fyamano sana. There is a lot of sense in what u are saying. Not these other chaps who are shielding criminals.

    Chiluba is a very stiff necked chap. If the Justice system in Zambia will continue taking long to finish up the cases in our courts, we will take all the courts to London!! Judge Smith seems to be very efficient!!

90. U see Silvester Mwanza (#88), we wisely cannot go forward without learning from the past and dealing with issues in the past.

    This is not about Chiluba alone. It is about our Beloved Zambia. Even LPM, if there will be cause to prosecute him after his tenure, we must do so when the time comes!!

91. and most you guys why are you afriad to put your real names when you are expressing your views. Do you have something to hide? Do you believe in what you are saying?there is more credebility in people who are not afraid to reveal thier identity. the new deal govt will protect you.I also respect your views about chiluba being punished but for me this does not translate in bringing sustainable changes to our peoples lives. is LPM and his family members learning from this experience? are we going to put our taxes to pursue them for another 10 years? I think we have other pressing issues to fight poverty, create jobs for our people than time and agian to chase politicians. the reasons for this is that the only good payin job in zambia today is to be a politician or a boot licker to the politicians. it is a pity

92. The press briefing was a circus. It will be good to have more of these. How does one accept to put his personal monies in the grz account? It is amazing that one would want us believe this simple reasoning. Bane lets pay back. After all if paid back the VALTURE CRIMINAL CO will be paid $15m.

93. LPM & his conspirators are driving Zambia into a Genocide position. Levy & his minions are setting up people against each other. LPM has gone ahead to offend warlords in the Congo. What do you expect – smiles? Where are the emeralds Task Force grabbed from Katumbi? Is this way you say thank you to someone who sold cheap mealie meal to enable MMD win 2001 elections?

94. Silvester Mwanza (#91)
    I particularly, have nothing to hide. I choose to call my self by this name becoz it is one way of saying who i am. I WAS BORN RICH.

    Even if i to tell u my name, no one would know me becoz i am NOT by any standard a celebrity. i am just me, BORN RICH!!!

    That should convince you that i have nothing to hide. U see i am debating intelligently. There are laws in this country and in the world over. These laws must be respected. These laws say “THOU SHALL NOT STEAL”. All those who steal transgress this law and must be given the due punishment.

    The issue of sustainability does not hold water. We must root this country of thieves wherther it is expensive to do so or not. We must set a standard.

    IF YOU BREAK THE LAW, THE ZAMBIAN PEOPLE WILL MAKE SURE THAT THE LAW BREAKS YOU!!

95. I hope Born rich you are as clean as you portray. Laws are made by human beings in order to better their lives and not to enslave them therefore having laws in place does not justify abuse. I know some of you may think am defending chiluba, not at all. I dont even leave in zambia nor have l ever worked for the govt. But l just feel we waste a lot of time to things which do not translate in alleviating poverty.

    So for you who are craving for chiluba to be in jail l wish you all the best but l assure you this will not change your life nor that of your relatives. A lot of cash will be spent to sustain the former head of state in jail.

    I know most of us zambian are emotional. Yesterday, we were singing for Kaunda, then chiluba, today mwanawasa and then tomorrow who….all of this is because of poverty. let us fight to put systems in place to curb abuse, such as the present constituution debate.

96. If I was a lawyer I would staight away hang the gown because what is happening in Zambia is unbelievable.Why do we keep talking about the constitution all the time?Imwe these whites you support are selfish charactors.They don’t mean well for us Africans.Whether FTJ aliba or not let the autonomous judicial system of Zambia determine that.I think that’s why there a lot of leakages for someone to become a lawyer.Zambian lawyers show us that you became one on merit and not through ‘mwembeshi’

97. Silvester Mwanza (#95),
    Laws are made to create ORDER in society. They are made to PROTECT society as a whole. NOT EVERYONE IS ENTITLED TO FREEDOM. Let me explain….

    WHEN WE ARE BORN ( just like i was Born Rich) we are born FREE. But we are only free so long we are under the bondage of ( or in obedience to) the law. Freedom has its limits. Law is that limit.

    No one is free to steal, kill and do harm to another person. Natural Justice demands that those who cannot handle freedom, be enslaved. HOW ARE the enslaved? By putting the behind bars for sometime so that they can learn to handle freedom.

    That is what must be done to Heff Tee Jay (… sorry, FTJ)!!!

98. Its a pity that Lawyers who were after Chiluba’s money have left Chiluba holding to the ropes alone. The guy seem now to have enough ropes and wondering which one to us to hang himself. He is now admiting that he store by saying the government should be dressing the leader, some of the money came from well wishers, what well wishers/friends who could deposit personal money in a public account?? Cheap stuff from FTJ.

    Just humble yourself and apologise to the nation. Zambians have big hearts to consider. But instead you are always fighting claiming you are innocent and same time trying to justify that you used a few amounts. Shame Kafupi

99. (Ref: #95),

    FREEDOM IS A PARADOX

    YOU CANNOT TALK ABOUT FREEDOM WITHOUT TALKING ABOUT ‘BONDAGE’!!!

    TO BE FREE, YOU MUST BE A SLAVE

    NOT A SLAVE TO FELLOW MAN, BUT A SLAVE TO THE LAW – THE LAW THAT MAKES PEOPLE FREE.

100. Guys dont just pass a comment when you dont even know what really chiluba did.I have read all the 94 contribution very few of them are sensible the lest are worst of time.If what chiluba told us yesterday is true that means even mwanawasa is in deep trouble when he leaves office in 2011.To day mwanawasa is telling us that he has never stollen any coin, am sure you cant judge yourself to be clean someone else has to do that so lets wait and see in 2011.

101. Comment #100

     I do not like it when u say “If what chiluba told us yesterday is true”.

     It seems u are commenting on assumptions. Please contribute, but have facts, not assumptions!!!

102. Done (#100)

     WHAT DO U MAKE OF A PERSON WHO GIVES THE FOLLOWING ADVICE..

     “Guys dont just pass a comment when you dont even know what really chiluba did”

     AND THEN, SHORTLY AFTER THAT SAYS THE FOLLOWING..

     “If what chiluba told us yesterday is true”.

     Man, you are confusing us. You seem not to know what u are talking about, yourself!!!

103. LPM can cheat some , but not all, he cannot claim to be clean, when he came in power through dubious means. First he stole votes from Mazoka (MHSRP). Secondly, he stole state money to campaign in 2001, which he using to ride helicopters. My dear Done (#100) this man will not be there by 2011 by then he will be resting in hell at Teka farm, which he brought using state monies.

104. Kuku, ifimano fyabukaponya tawakaleke? oh my heart, I think you are missing chinika Mwaice. you and Kayata are confused and you dont know when, what and how to contribute. You like attacking innocent people, or may be ni hung over ya kacina.

     Chiluba killed Paul Tembo and Wezi Kaunda using his invissible snappers and he will pay for that.

105. Don’t use racism to run away from the conviction Dr FTJ, just clear the air and pay back the money being asked for, Zambia needs it. No wonder you decided to sell most of the parastal companies to “misappropriate” the same doll. I cannot even understand by the way the cirumstances that compelled the state to sell zanaco, I guess the same crap will happen with the money realised cmon guys!! If the so called buyer of zanaco is a giant, then why didnt they open a new Bank? Its simply a string of hidden truth, the poor will get poorer indeed. Lets hope zesco is not the next on the ;list. Otherwise imiti ikula eyo bochelako amalasha. Elyo Ba Dr Chilu, what did u study? we need to get paid pa russia. twafwa pay the doll man!!

106. Mwaice Kuku uleke kacina, wanona nomba you cant even talk to people kumulandu wa bad mouth breath, nekence nasho shalipola. Dont make this blog as a compasent for your bad mouth breath.

     You Kayata stop wearing mbemudas and green gumboots. You chap why are you on me? I only mind my fxxx business and mwayamba ukusonsomba.

     Can someone tell me where Mudala wakatezula is?

107. Mudala Ba Jose mukanwa ukubolo kunsele, nasheniko ukutuka, abanenu. Be nsesible man

108. GUYS THE DBEATE ON THIS ISSUE SEEMS TO INDICATE THE COMPLEXITY OF THIS CASE. FROM WHAT I HAVE GATHERED THE MONEY IN QUESTION IS NOT ENTIRELY FROM THAT ACCOUNT. SO WHEN COMING UP WITH A PER CENTAGE TO RETURN IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN TAKEN INTO ACCOUNT.

     THE OTHER ISSUE IS THAT THIS CASE HAS REVEALED NOTHING NEW AS THESE ALLEGATIONS HAVE ALWAYS BEEN THERE AND THEY STILL REMAIN ALLEGATIONS UNTIL A “COMPETENT COURT” PASSES JUDGEMENT. BUT BECAUSE THIS CASE HAS BEEN SPOILED BY THIS MISHANDLING, I DOUBT HOW THE SAME PENDING CASES WILL PROCEED. NO MATTER THE LEGAL SEMANTICS BY OUR LEARNED LAWYERS, THERE IS A MEASURE OF DESTRUCTION OF THESE CASES DONE BY THIS FOREIGN INTERFERENCE.

109. Ba Jose (#106),

     we need to debate and interact intelligently!
     No Insults. Show some civility please.

     We are not in a tarven.

110. H.K,CHILUMBA,K.C AND TRULY ZAMBIAN.You guys sound like you have not been to zed in a while,or maybe somehow you had a hand in corrupt cases.Lets have positive minds how long show africans behave like this ,the crusade LPM has began is vital in ensuring we don’t have corruption in our future governments.Let ftj pay back twapapata let him pay.

111. guys,
     I now know why FTJ was saying “TWACHULA PAFULA” with a clenched fist and crocodile tears in his eyes. Armagedon has come for the little man.

112. When people insult me, ni che mushye but when I retriate kuti nabashilanda nishi bakwata chance yakwasama. “Born Rich” you will die poor by watch pipo who are progressive. Mwaice you are luck just because am born again and na ma-half yapwa aya internet. Naya tamangax2.

113. Born Rich and AM, forgive this chap called Ba Jose(#104 and 106). He is a comedian and is enjoying the freedom in Zambia since he has been in exile from both DRC and Zimbabwe. In Katanga and Matebeleland, they are used to insults and fighting, and they have no such forum’s, but he wants to abuse the freedom he has been awarded in Zambia. Ba kamba ba Jose, natwishiba ati fi chibuku fyali moneka, but please respect others too, no one is your relative here or your child. I told you that if we return you, we shall be committing a sin and be liable for crime on humanity, but we can’t take you to Chainama either. By the we all have been waiting for your comments, but none only insults.

114. Ba Joze (#112),

     “retriate” does not exist anywhere in the English Dictionary. Point of correction: “Born Rich” can never and will never die poor, BECAUSE Born Rich by nature is RICH!

     I doubt if ba Joze is “Born Again” as he claims to be, unless ofcourse if there is a different meaning to the word.

     Anyway good luck Ba Joze as you look for some more money for Browsing.

     A free tip from Born Rich to you :” YOU SHOULD NOT WORK FOR MONEY, LET MONEY BEGIN TO WORK FOR YOU. LOVE PEOPLE AND USE MONEY!!

     Having said that, i want to say the some of your contributions are good We need them BUT we do not need your insults. have a good day Ba Joze.

115. Can someone please educate me on this.
     FTJ said almost USD9MILLION recieved in the zamtrop account for his use were gifts from well wishers.This “UMUTULO” he recieved was in exchange for what?. Maybe it was a cut he was getting for faciliting swindling of Zambian funds by the likes of Katebe Katoto and his brother Moses Katumbi.Or was it procceeds of the sale of arms to Savimbi,transported by Aero Zambia when Katumbi was the airlines vice chairman ?.

     Please educate me!!!

116. Kayata (#113)
     Thanks that there are pipo like u on this blog for guidance.

     I “Born Rich” hereby forgive “ba Joze” for insulting and not giving sensible contributions.

     But for FTJ, there is NO forgiveness yet, there is only enforsing the London Judgement and imprisonment and forgiveness will come later!!

117. Kayata, you seem like a chap ulaleka ubwali and replace it with pasta and thinking monga uli pa cloud 9. First why do youlike insulting me? Shaku-getela inkeche yoba M Daka. Yaba kuti nabafyala ama mbemuda nishi nabo bwaca….luck you are, am born again.

     As far as am concerned FTJ killed paul tembo and wezi kaunda and the blood of these people is still on his shoulders. He has to confess to the almighty God and second he has no morals to grab someone wife (Regina)for exchange for a house.

     You Kayata where is Mudala Wakatezula?

118. I would like to know where Mr. Silwamba is! Any advice? Or has he abandoned a sinking ship? Lets also hear from the Simenzas or the Mvungas. Has what the other lawyer allowed to do in the Zambian judicial system welcome? Or are all the learned colleagues of ours opted to remain silent until 2011? On the fight of corruption otherwise, we can say Zambia should conyinue to do so.

119. Ba Joze (#117)
     I Thought your money for browsing finished. Atleast you said it yourself in #112.

     I hope tausendele isha munani ku pilo.

120. Born Rich (#116),Ba Jose has schizophrenia and obsession, so therefore understand and forgive him.
     Anyway,..FTJ brought Scotland Yard for KK from UK. FTJ deserves no forgiveness, but punishment from all corners of the world. LPM has brought Smith for him and he is the first to complain. KK still had his immunity but was prosecuted as if he was a criminal by FTJ. If he knew about Zambia’s sovereignity, he would not have engaged the Scotland Yard. But he knew how efficient those guys are, and thats why he does not want to appear before Smith. FTJ has lost his immunity therefore he should not protest and blame Smith for his judgement. And besides it, why do people blame racism for judgement’s against their favour? If FTJ defended himself before Smith, what would he have been saying….? We need Transparency…..

121. Citizen (#115), wake up, you are sleeping a gift is a gift, no strings attached. why dont you ask Muwelewele if at the donations he received for MMD during 2006 elections was in exchange of anything. Even Mutulo, when you tula, do you expect anything in return. How many donations has zambia receives from different donors – its in exchange of what? Our souls may be or our dignity?

122. AM(#121),

     Atleast he should name those well wishers so that we see who they are.

     We may just find that Katebe Katoto and the katanga governer are among the people who gave him the mutulo. But that would raise more suspicion!!!

123. AM, bauze diwe mwamuna. you see AM, these is now infeted by chaps who pretend to be degree holders while we know they were form 3s from chipepo like Kayata. Mwaice “born rich” are you still wearing dieppers? I dont steal, I just work hard for my money.

     LPM, is not free at the moment “aipwila ipanshi” he has brought political vegence in the country which will go on from generation to generation. where is one zambia one nation?

124. AM, bauze diwe mwamuna. you see AM, this blog is now infeted by chaps who pretend to be degree holders while we know they were form 3s from chipepo like Kayata. Mwaice “born rich” are you still wearing dieppers? I dont steal, I just work hard for my money.

     LPM, is not free at the moment “aipwila ipanshi” he has brought political vegence in the country which will go on from generation to generation. where is one zambia one nation?

     May 11, 2007

125. AM, bauze diwe mwamuna. you see AM, this blog is now infested by chaps who pretend to be degree holders while we know they were form 3s from chipepo like Kayata. Mwaice “born rich” are you still wearing dieppers? I dont steal, I just work hard for my money.

     LPM, is not free at the moment “aipwila ipanshi” he has brought political vegence in the country which will go on from generation to generation. where is one zambia one nation?

     May 11, 2007

126. yaba ama-half ya vana

127. I thought this fora was for seriouse issues,iam dissappointed at what level the discussion is.It looks like it is a place for bored individuals who are trying to see the day go by.Please be made aware that the points you raise at a certain time can be used to RALLY A NATIONAL AGENDA THAT MIGHT RISE SOMETIME.I was impressed when I came across this web as I wasnt aware of it earlier,but to my dismay the contributions are becoming without any substance.Even the individuals being critised and appraised might as well say these are only disgruntled chaps wasting the day and going back to sit around the evening opaque beer.By the gents and ladies lets support each other lets utilise this fora to its maximum capacity.Lets see to it that intellectuals ,Cabinet ministers,religious pastorals and senior citizens are entericed into this.For you guys wasting time,kindly log on other sites such as youtube,playboy and other.

128. Ba Joze (#125), “dieppers” is not the correct spelling!

     It is important that you make the correct spellings on some of these critical words lest you mislead innocent souls.

     AM (#121), let not people like “Ba Joze” mislead you. You told citizen to wakeup. Maybe it is you who needs to wakeup to the reality that your friend Ba Joze is an illiterate!!!

129. The whole blog is becoming meaningless with less knowledgeable people who are hell bent on destructing people with great contributions.The language,the vulgar, the childshiness being exhibited is one such area requiring correctness, can Lusaka.com moderate the contributions and sift out those that are stupid?One would imagine that all the contributors are here to share their experiencies not insults or cheap raps.
     So ladies and genetlemen let us portray maturity no wonder marjority of you are concealing there I.D’s as Silvester Mwanza asked.If you are genuine why not come out with your real names.There are no punishments if you revealed yourself, this is a free world, if you are scared of minister mulyata, I give you the immunity.You are protected by law.
     Ba Joze, BOrn Rich,HK,Citizen,Che please take this as brotherly advice.

130. Nageta ama-half, “born wapama” dieppers is American slug, you must go back to school to complete your elementaries. Pipo are reminding me to contribute but you want have contributed? Bunda wamipoto mwaice, go and remove your pampers otherwise ku-style kwalaba to-rush.

131. viva gk and anonimous 129

132. Ba Jose please grow up.Why have you come back? see comment 129.

133. By the way to whom was this money ‘donated’? Having seeing the comments on this board; I now understand why these monies were pocketed by Chiluba. Zambians seem to have a problem of rightfully claiming what is theirs. I have seen it all: from Zambians getting excited with the Senegalese stealing their emeralds to zambian miners been taxed at a higher rate than their employers!

134. the debate on chiluba has generated a lot of interest but l can still see fear in many zambians refusing acknowledge their identity.

     wwe wait for 2011 and see who is clean and who is not. it is just around the corner by the way.

135. AM you must be very naive

     You give a gift all a present because at the minimum you a buying good will which will result in some kind of a favour extended to you. Whether it is Levy or Chiluba the gifts they recieve are meant to benefit the givers inversly in one way or another. You give mutulo at church because you expect blessing.

     Who would give USD9MILLION as a gift in return for nothing.

     Be objective

136. Anonymous (#129),
     It is just sad that you are exhibiting double standards!

     You have concealed your name, but at the same time you seem to be against people who you think are not using their real names. How Sad. How very sad.

     Using real names or not doing so, should not be an issue here. Would it make any difference if i started using James Zulu on this blog when Jame Zulu is infact not my real name? I dont think so.

     The issue is just on maturity in debating issues. There is need for maturity. Vulgar language should not be tolerated.

     But remember, this is a public forum. You find all sorts of people. What we need to do (those of us who have sense) is to raise the level of debate so that misfits will automaticall feel out of place.

     Have a good day.

137. Ba AM. There is no such a thing as a free lunch

138. Reading the comments on this blog makes me wonder how much brains are left in Zambia. Someone steals US$41m, the bulk of you Zambians can’t even believe he stole it.. Its requires a British judge to tell you that balimibila…

     If the chap does not bring the money back or tell us who donated it.. send him to jail.
     Hope the take away every penny from him and make him as poor as he was when he was in Ndola.

     Chiluba the hour has come for you…
     He thinks by crying racism he will be free…

139. Hk has nothing to fear or Luzi, ladiiz and gentelemeni.
     Chiluba, kilisholi, kaboolala, Mbala, Kabwala, all the name you can call him. Like any other thief, he is a refined one. The man does not listen to himself because if he did, he would be suprised how stupid he is.

     The facts of the matter are that, the world is becoming global. The boundaries are being removed, people and capital are moving freely.. The financial and communication systems have evolved in a way that a transaction worth billions of dollars can be done with a click of a mouse on the right link…With this complexity or easiness of things( depending on which fence you fall in)Zedian should rise to the occassion and persue their interest across the boundaries and rivers of our Nation.

     Chiluba is a laughing stock at this moment but shameless..Chungu is in Exile or should I imbutushi…Francis kaunda no longer have that credibility..What about Ba Stella Chibanda, who became an Instant Billionair.

140. Listen ama men,
     They say “one is innocent until proved guilty”. So FTJ was innocent until the Learned Judge Smith found him guilty.

     So all of you who are defending kafupi, in short are saying that you are condoning theft.

     you must be ashamed of yourselves!!

141. Kuku, you insulted me and those were not insults just coz they came from Kuku? Pipo, we dont want chameleons like Kuku who come on this blog with hung-over ya kacina or tochika come bullying me. Am free to say want I want not ask from ba Kuku or uyu mwaice uwampama “born fyakubantu”. Mwaice iyi tenis waleteya iyalenga wekate ubulaya did teach you see down on educated pipo.

142. Says who? (Citizen#137)we buy lunch for each other lunch every day just for free. It is naive pipo like u Citizen who demand something in return. By the way u cannot bribe God with ur Mutulo. God blesses u whether u tula or not. Ask Born Rich, he will get u a pizza for free, especially on Tuesdays.

143. musiyeni mwana

144. “Ba Joze” (#141) ba mudala, we need to hear your intelligent comments. People can see that my contributions make sense.

     The person who is giving you money for browsing is guity of plunder!! I hope it is not kafuti. otherwise we will take you to Judge Smith!!

145. AM Even a cliche’ passes you by.

     I give up with u

146. “Born fyakubantu” awe wacilamo imimpoto wee! Kuti nafyala amatebela bayamba popping pimples nishi nabo paba. Mwaice, you luck am born again and now on my way to church. Amen

147. Good Citizen & bye!! ($145)

148. Did any one read FTJ’s press release? if you did i would like to hear some object comments regarding the funds($9M) from well wishers which can be proved but ignored by Peter Smith. secondly if the Attoney general only sued for $2.9M how did Peter arrive at $46M. Thirdly in relation to fiduciary responsibility ,is it prudent to hold the president accountable for the crimes or thefts commited by government offices .bearing in mind how the ZIS operates or operated in the past.
     if you dont understand what i’m talking about please dont respond.

149. AM & CITIZEN ,I do not believe the lie that the all that money that Chiluba is misused was from friends and other donors.

     The man decided to start keeping money in that account as a way of concealing certain fraudulent transactions.

     It was not wise and it was not in the interest of the nation for Kafupi to keep “personal funds” in a govt account. That is unacceptable. I hope LPM is not doing the same!!

150. AM & CITIZEN ,I do not believe the lie that the all that money that Chiluba misused was from his savings and donations.

     I think the man decided to start keeping money in that account as a way of concealing certain fraudulent transactions.

     It was not wise and it was not in the interest of the nation for Kafupi to keep “personal funds” in a govt account. That is unacceptable. I hope LPM is not doing the same!!

151. Born Rich.. i think i clearly stated that i need some depth and objectivity in response to my questions. If you dont understand the subject. do us favour do some research before making any comments.

152. I liked the way LPM started his fight against corruption. And making the law to guide our beloved nation and this is the law in Zambia. BUt taking the law to uk it doesnt work. FTJ judgement whether he stole or not it was predetermined.Just try to look at it serious, if you are intuitive like me you would have already seen it even when it just started. AM has just reminded me of LPM before he came into power he only had a farm or two but after he now has 5 who knows may be he even has more.Where is he getting that money from?FTJ studied Philosophy under Warwick university, u.k , A masters Degree,for those who are asking.
     It would have made much sense if FTJ was found guilty of stealing that amount in Zambian courts.
     Another clarification FTJ need make is where donations going to FTJ as a personal friend or as a president.
     Anyhow that matters less, lets look at development of our nation not past events. one thing for sure people have to know not to mess with the law.

153. Chiluba failed to separate between what was genuinly his and that of the state. Since he is now caught pants down he want to weave his way out by saying it was an intelligence advise.
     The donations and Solicitated contributions like that of Vulture funds were all done to defraud Zambia and they went to benefit Chiluba. Chiluba was running Zambia like his Chicken run.
     We should stop wasting our time..Let the state go ahead and recover what is left of this little Dwarf.

154. I believe FTJ now knows that if he stole or not the law is seroius in Zambia despite the govenment taking the law to uk.(I see the judgement invalid anyhow)And Zambians too have known and from this experience i believe the ones coming to be leaders shall be more carefull.Even though LPM has also mismanaged funds already.Lets see how far the law will go we too are to make efforts for justice in our country.(please dont continue to make mistakes like the current government to take cases to UK).Since even chiluba know the seriousness of the cases whether he stole or not forgive him.Just encourage him to invset in the country.I have spoken to certain people in zambia including ministers others are even scared to build things saying they are scared that the government will think its corruption. As we are fighting corruption let it not hinder national development. Lets fight it smartly and with proper evidence. Not just becuase you see someone getting rich we think its corruption or stolen .

155. TRIGO, I think you need to understand one thing – Chiluba used London to launder proceeds of crime. I do not believe the case would have been taken to the UK had London not been used to launder the money. Do not get hang ups about the fact that a UK court was involved here. After all many Africans who have been victims of injustice in their own countries have taken advantage of UK and US courts where awards for compensation are much higher than they can get in their own countries. Even the Nigerian goverment had to go to European courts to recover the billions stolen by Abacha. These kind of cases are far too complex for our cash starved courts. London has the technology to uncover any hidden paper and electronic trails that are usually involved in such cases. As for discouraging hard working people – I think if you have worked hard and paid your taxes, you have nothing to worry about! Records will be there as evidence. A culture of theft and tax evasion cannot be good for Zambia!

156. TRICGO..Your Minister friends are afraid to build anything because their money is not clean.Only thieves are afraid..When we get rid of all the bad eggs or reduce their influence in our Country, then Zambia will start to prosper and there will be hope for everyone. Corruption tend to distort the country development. Put unnecessary pressure on honest and hard working pipo..ultimately everyone ends up wanting to take more than they put one..The the country remains with nothing… Congo has far more Billionaires than Zambia..but look at thier state..It goes to Nigeria as well

157. “Born rich” mwaice you are a satanist,#114 kashi walikwata ilomba iligatta ama-half we poor struggle to earn in sun shine. Am proud to be poor but I have diginity as a man of God. Mwaice, money goes money comes, you must remember that.

     Kayata forgive, am not so good in English, leka mukamba imbika home service. Kayata am from church we were told to forgive and forget. Mukamba plz take my words and be aware of satanist who are exploring this site makamaka “born fyakubatu” uwafyalwe na silver spoon mu-style.
     If we learn to give then we MUST FORGIVE FTJ ai mukamba?

158. All if not most of you are agreed that Chiluba is a thief. What I also see is some who think that Levy is our hero for having initiated all this.

     Personally I ask myself the following questions

     – Why did Levy initially offer Dr. Bulaya a nolle if he really is convinced about fighting corruption

     – why has Levy never acted on Mabenga’s issues

     – Why did Levy hold onto vehicles brought by taxpayers money for MMD?

     – Wasn’t it the same Levy who grabbed UNZA land ?

159. FRIENDS DO YOU KNOW WHY MANDELA IS GREAT? IT’S NOT BECUASE HE SPENT SO MUCH TIME IN PRISON FOR A JUST CAUSE ALTHOUGH THAT’S PART OF IT. NO! MANDELA IS GREAT BECAUSE OF HIS ABILITY TO FORGIVE AND PUT THE PAST BEHIND HIM. THAT’S HOW GREAT NATIONS DEVELOP. SO LEVY SHOULD SHOW US HIS GREATNESS!!!

160. Campbell your point is taken and i agree with you. But when typing use lower case. When you type in capital letters it means you are shouting.

161. ADVERT

     Imported FTJ monogrammed suits ,ties,shirts and other assorted items FOR SALE @ shop 58V Simoson building.
     Plenty of stocks, plus any purchases above 100 pin automaticaly qualify for a raffle for a pair of high healed shoes valued at $200.
     HURRY WHILE STOCKS LAST

162. Comment 159, I hope everyone sees it from that angle.The evil that Botha did to mandela and indeed to the blacks is much more than $46m.Developmental priorities have been misplaced ,in governance when you get something right you build on it and on the other hand if you fall short on it involve and engage people,listen ,learn and redesign strategies to set other priorities.We have been dealing with this graft crusade since 2001 and today we are in 2007 with very little achievement but the situation has just been excerbated escaliting to controlling officers in govts,so this tells us that there is something wrong with the hypothesis.But Campell ther are people on this earth who derive happiness from the misery of others.

163. After analysing FJT’s oratory at his press statement, there is only one point that I agree with him. This is when he says that the old man Michael Chilufya Sata, the one and only King Cobra, sometimes does not mean what he says. I could add on to say that the old serpent (serpent is his adorable nick name)most times does not mean what he says. He just utters words to please the masses who flock to his rallies for entertainment. I thank God that he did not win the presidential elections.

     On this blog, I have also noted that there are people who are like the old man Sate and make comments without meaning what they say. One of them is the infamous Ba Joze and the other one is the person who made comments at number 68.

     At this blog, just like the political arena, will identify comedians from people who can make meaningful comments.

164. What campbel wilfully forgets or is ignorant about is that there was a Truth and Recociliation Commission (TRC) in SA and some white people and sell outs alike had to pay for their sins. Exactly what we want of FTJ. He has to confess before being forgiven. You dont blanket-forgive whilst he is still ARROGANT. Mandela never did that

165. I am perplexed at the POST editorial comments that are in support of Judge Smith’s comments. Why should a foreign court of law surely indict a Zambian national (Chiluba) and fellow citizens such as LAZ and POST editors be happy with such a grave matter that erodes our independence? Chiluba is facing similar charges in a criminal case at Chikwa court in Lusaka and I personally don’t understand the reasoning behind prosecuting a civil case in a foreign court thereby spending millions of dollars on legal expenses. Even Saddam Hussein who committed crimes against humanity was convicted by an Iraq court and later hanged by Iraqis.

     General Paul Kagame the President of Rwanda was also recently found guilty by a FRENCH Judge of being mainly being responsible of shooting down the plane carrying late President HABYARIMANA thereby triggering the Rwandan genocide. To cut the long story short, Rwanda government has called that court judgement as trash.

166. ‘Truly zambian’, apparently zambian citizens also have to abide by foreign law, especially if they use foreign services such as banks. obviously in that event foreign courts, run by foreign judges have full jurisdiction.
     Contrary to your views, this issue has nothing to do with independence or sovereignity.
     Viva judge Smith

167. I agree with you comment #165. Fred Mmember’s comment is very rhetorical and he has always been against Chiluba. Drung the elections last sept, he contributed to the fruad in most of the centres due to his misleading headlines. News reporting should be balanced not only to favour your own shallow ideas. Lusaka times good job for informing the people all the good and the bad issues affecting our society. I would rather pay to read Lusaka times than the post.Viva and keep with the good job.

168. Mr Chiluba be realistic who can give any one a total of US Dollar $41 million what did you give these people for you to recieve such amounts. If you truely felt and knew how much the Zambian people were suffering why did you not give this money to the nation but instead on top of what you were being paid as president you enhanced yourself further and used the money to your own benefit Mr former President to me and I believe a lot of other Zambians we need and explanation not retoric or political statements we need you to show charactor and tell us what is going on. A lot of Zambians believed in you you brought hope to us and you also brought a kind of leadership that had not been seen in this nation and right now you are disappointing a lot of people. To me you appear like a child cought with his hands in the pot by his mother. All this back and forth talk is not helping anyone just come clean.Because history will judge more hasly in the end.

169. Truly Zambian, the only reason why you have not understood as you have mentioned is because you have not read and understood the difference between Kagame,Saddam and FTJ cases. Do you think there should have been any reason to try Saddam in USA or UK or wherever? With regards to Kagame, do you want him as President to go to France and stand trial, when he has immunity?
     FTJ called the Scotland Yard for KK, so the last person who should complain about bringing in the west forces should be FTJ and his supporters.

170. Refs #169 (Kayata) please give us a name of an American or European President ever convicted by an African court of law. Please give us the year and country where that conviction took place. If African armies had invaded Iraq only not to find weapons of mass destruction, their African Leaders who now be facing an international war crimes tribunal probably in Brussels.

     In the case of Rwanda, it’s President Paul Kagame and the top military hierarchy have been indicted by French Court judgement. Rwandese Army Generals don’t have immunity but they WILL NOT compromise the sovereignty of Rwanda by going to France or respecting those court proceedings. Ba Post and Kayata make no mistake about on sovereignty, your court cases will be soon be determined by the very men you worship.

171. I think this is just politics. Okay he accepted of given money through donation, so let him prove it and at the end of the day he will be a free man.

172. comment 170, Kayata may have no examples, but perhaps the two continents have NOT had a petty thief of FTJs calibre yet.
     You are NOT telling me you are happy about the Genocide that happened in Rwanda. If you think it was sad, then lets hope Kaagame’s time is coming.
     Dont tie criminal activities to sovereignity.

173. Anything Zambian is rebelled black, starting from hospitals up to courts, that’s why SC(levy)goes to London clinic for brain scanning and cholesterol check up and the nastiest of all, is to allow judge Peter Smith to pass judgment on Chiluba and compel the Zambian court to bow to it? First of all, who’s and what’s judge Peter Smith in Zambia? If anything, Smith was supposed to be part of the witness in Zambian court against Chiluba and then the passed judgment could have carried more weight than being ridicule. Please, am not saying Chiluba isn’t answerable for his misdemeanour but am against the London courts telling us what to do and undermining the dignity of our courts.

174. I am reluctant to respond to Ref # 172 but may all I can say are the words of late Robert Nesta Marley and I say this with a very heavy heart “ Emancipate yourself from mental slavery non but ourselves can free our minds”

175. Hey,just on the point of Kaagame, i believe he did a right thing not to bow to a foriegn court. But of course we all know if indeed he is guilty as charged.Then he did a bad thing and let justice prevail.look at Bush, Bush also killed lots of people in Iraqi during the war.But no charges have been given him.Yet the UN had refused any country to attack iraq,USA did. what did UN do instead of sanctioning USA they accepted the result.I remember during that time i was with some friends who work for the UN and they were asking me to celebrate with them that SADAM was captured.How many lives were lost?Why can we try Bush in our African courts too we can make the trail in SOUTH AFRICA?
     On the other hand i agree with hey on #166 zambian citizens have to abide by the law of the particular nation but judge Smith went beyond his limit and got into zambian business.Read his statements well.Another thing is FTJ was in zed and is why trial in uk?whoes money involed? zambia’s.which law FTJ abide? Z

176. Hey..Most of you on this forum reside in the Whiteman’s country..So what are your arguments. Chiluba stole and will be punished..actually he is already being punished as his name keeps depreciating..Viva Zed

177. comment #166 you are right in pointing out about the commission set up in SA and that is one way we can go about it in zambia. But a word of caution is the TRC was not set up as a witch hunt crusade rather one that sought to reconcile south african blacks and whites. The key word is reconciliation and it calls for level headed individuals whose sole purpose is to facilitate dialogue for the sake of encouraging parties to forgive; its not about pay back and am afraid with the current climate created by the government in zambia, it would be about pay back and not forgiveness.

     And to the person who pointed out my using captital letters as shouting; sorry that’s not what i intended but its one of those typing habits I have sometimes!

178. The very truth is that Chiluba stole and he should pay back. The man claims that the money was donated to him and he put it in the Zamtrop account, the question is who consented to him puting his personnel money into the zamtrop account? If it is true the money was donated by wellwishers, I am trully convinced this money was not meant for the personal use of Chiluba but was meant for developmental projects for the country. If Chiluba had the so claimed friends, where are they today, why have they not helped this man in his illness. The other issue Zambians should not forget is that when Vera was claiming a huge amount of money from Chiluba after their divorce she knew how much money and assets this man had stolen. My fellow Zambians lets not be cheated of fooled by Chiluba, he has to show remorse and pay back. Forgive this man the next thing he will be doing is to laugh back at you with his eyes closed. We should not set a precedent by letting this man get away with his wrong acts.

179. Truly Zambian,Ref# 170,174.Do you know that a judge opened an inquiry into the allegations of the French army in the involvement of the genocide in Rwanda? What has the Rwandanese Govt done to persecute the French involvement? Those should be the questions you should be asking.Mitterand sent a peacekeeping force that did not help in stopping the genocide,but was involved in it.France armed and trained President Habyarimana’s forces,which critics say formed the backbone of the Hutu militia during the genocide.Paul Kagame,Rwanda’s current President,has accused France of failing to tell the truth about Operation Turquoise.Operation Turqoise was the French Peacekeeping mission.In 1998 a French parliamentary committee attempted to investigate France’s role in the genocide. But most of the evidence that it sought was classified as a state secret.The French Army is already facing a legal inquiry into allegations that soldiers killed an injured rebel during a peacekeeping mission in IvoryCoast

180. Sovereignity taken in the extreme context of FTJ’s sympathisers would be very counterprodctive. Goverments and Institutions run by white people would have to be ignored by all black people, and obviously the reverse would be true too. FTJ ‘rejected’ his judgement from the white man, others think its wishful thinking.
     Its more apprpriate to think of Mental slavery as viewing anything from the west, good or bad, as imperialist. Taking a predetermined position about any pronouncement from a western court is such an example.

181. LPM is determined to see Chiluba suffer and Sata locked up even on very flimsy reasons. Please don’t forget that people in the urban areas never voted for the current Government. His mandate was given via rural areas and illiterates whose only concern is FATALEZA. Urban dwellers know the pettiness and revenge tactics of LPM & his minions and people know the retrogression this can bring to a country.

     LPM should enforce that London Judgement without hesitation but once another Government takes over, Zamtrop will be revisited this time from 1963 because ba Kaunda is also a moral hypocrite that squandered Zambian’s resources. Kaunda & Dipak will never forgive Chiluba because he destroyed idols at David’s universal temple. I am challenging ba Kaunda to deny the presence of his idols.

182. Sam K and Trigo,your comments at 173 and 175. You are both blaming Smith for his judgement.
     Sam you are saying Smith is supposed to be a witness,in what category can he be a witness?

     Trigo you are saying Smith went beyond his limit,what limit are you talking about?

     Sam and Trigo,Zambia went to Smith’s court, Smith didn’t come to Zambia. It is a who went where scenario.

183. Gentlemen, there is no need to deny, Levy has just opened a pandora box, he undermined the extent to which this thing will go.The Presidency is dead,come 2011 LPM will be treated much the same way especially if MMD loses elections unless they bring VJ to rig.Its the moral dignity that Campbell and Truly zambian are trying to propound on.LPM has failed to reconcile himself with CB and Lusaka and dont forget FTJ has implants in MMD.

184. What pondora box, did Mwanawasa open. The man said let Zed prosecute him if he stole. Mind you, the Votes got by Sata in Lusaka are less than those of HH and Mwanawasa combined. It can sefely be said that Sata is only popular among Kaponyas and Kaponya based provinces and its pipo. Mwanawasa has done a commendable Job and We want him to do more…

185. Mr.FTJ Chiluba Kafupi is truly a thief.Richard Sakala’s brother Edwin (president of ZDDM) briefcase party who happens to be a beneficiary wants to support him now!what a shame!!!many Zambi9ans died of depression coz of Kafupi Chiluba…may you rot in jail and never enjoy peace FTJ.

186. Kayata What smith was supposed to do is to find out whether chiluba stole and according to the amount he was sued for. Anyhow finding that he stole more, that is another thing but all the same. Smith was to say the amount stolen tell the government to take the case to its courts to make judgment. Then under the zambian government/ courts FTJ to pay back the amount and whatever amount else.Meaning judged by the zambian courts.
     If FTJ was former prime minister of the UK he could be judged there or if he used to stay there,or if he is staying there currently.
     One thing for sure Kayata you do have a point there about the scenario.But Zambia should be very careful the way it does it stuff.There is a dependency which is in zambia and many zambians NOT ALL there always dependent on others.I have seen it even in zambians who go overseas when they are there the always want to be dependent on others too much.As in the scenario you gave.when are we to do things ourselves?

187. Kayata #182, SC(Levy) going to London for medication, reveals that something is wrong with our hospitals and again to be compelled by judge Smith judgment entails the incapability of our courts on their own cases. Thus, judge Smith being an entity was supposed to come to Zambia and validate all the transactions made by FTJ rather than the country bowing to him. To me, that portrays the stupidity of SC for not having faith and trust in anything Zambian.
     Kayata, if the same judgment were passed by the Zambian court, don’t you think it would have carried more weight than the way it is as a ridicule with a different face of colonialism? Anyway, lets wait and see what will happen after the elapse of 14 days.

188. Sam K and Trigo,i agree with you both. FTJ brought Scotland Yard for KK, when he was accused of stealing books from State House. KK brought the Heaven On Earth from India and gave them abandant land in Central Province.Indeed, it shows something is wrong with our system.Probably it would explain why everything in the country is imported,starting from clothes worse still it’s second hand(salaula), cars etc, Ahhhh, even at university, students import,you know what i mean when a student imports after a drink up. Anyway, lets wait and see what happens after the 14 days, since FTJ has refused to accept the judgement. But will he accept the Chikwa courts judgement’s? No

189. Bro Kayata. I don know from which angle you are compairing hiring an investigative organ to actually by passing your legal system. Scotland yard or FBI can be brought in Zambia to help with investigations there is nothing wrong with that. Scottland yard has technology and forensic expertise that we dont have in Zambia. However, a judge does not need forensic epxertise to pass judgement. If SC and Kunda decided to involve scottland yard in trasing the intricate schemes used by FTJ and his cohorts to defrauld Zambia i would have no qalms with that. Actually its the prosecutors who should have involved Scottland yard. but the case should have been in the Zambian courts.
     You are also refereing to the Chikwa court. What ever the out come of that case will be it has been influenced. There is no way you are going to tell me that Peter Smiths judgement will have no bearing on the chikwa court. The prudent think for the prosecution to do is to enter a nulle and forcus on trying to find ways…

190. to enforce the Smith judgement which i hornestly think is going to take another 5 years to try sourt out all the juridictional issues.

191. Kuku .. What pandora box are you talking about. Whole amount FTJ is alleged to have stollen is $2.9 Which is just a total amount FTJ spent on his clothes and his kids abroad for 10 years. Always keep in mind that the zambian government was responsible for buying clothes for FTJ and there was no limit to how much he could spend. Secondly the presidents immediate family is entitled to be taken care of by the government that includes his children, parents and grand children. This brings to the question of what was mama Mokola doing doing on a mini bus if she was entitled to a car and a driver. may her sweat spirit rest in peace but there is something terribly wrong with LPM (SC) what ever that means.

192. Mr SAGE,… FTJ was already pronounced guilty even before the cases commenced. FTJ copied the style of CIA of using funds in inteligence that is never accounted for. LPM in L/stone and previously has always talked about FTJ returning the funds, when the courts have not yet proved if he really stole,legally i mean, and not the hearsay’s.
     The Govt had to look for courage and that was only through Smith. France objected to an inquiry to probe Mitterand and they cited State secrets. As you have mentioned, what was mama Mokola doing on that minibus? Many questions on that, why mother of a President was allowed to suffer to such extreme’s.

193. Mama Mokola at her age should have been a bona fide resident of state house. She was entitle to the benefits such as a car driver and medical expenses in fact she was entitled to an allowance. And if the records showed that state house was giving his LPM’s Beloved mon $1,000.00 a month as allowance for personal expenses no one would complain. The immediate family of the president is just as entitled to the benefits that comes with presidency as the president. We have sunk so low as Zambians even to be talking about shoes and suites. FTJ was entitled to send his kids to any school he felt fit for his kids. Just as LPM’s family is entitled to. The difference is LPM chose to to put his mom on a farm with no transportation and probably no food. Hense she was forced to jump on a mini bus. And there is no excuse for that. What happend to Mama Mokola is a discgrace to the country and the first family. Just know this if a president does not care about his mom how can he care about you.

194. SAGE, this case has no ethical merits whatsoever.FTJ as you say has been selectively pursued and LPM today is cursing himsself to have lost direction in doing so.What has LPM said about the $m found in his finance bank accounts? where did he get them from when we know that the presidents salary per 10 years is $100,000.We need law to compell retiring Presidents to declare their assets just to act as a check from the time they assumed office.This will only be the most transparent way of clearance of any financial abuse during tenure of office.LPM is not clean to say the least.

195. Ladies and gentlemen, i applaud your debate on FTJ’s case. FTJ did not steal anything? Please if you can refresh your minds by going through Judge Smith’s 200+pages judgement and carefully reflect you will find that actualy the whole document does not tel which ministry lost that money. The forensic investigations do not seem to conclude where the money came from. An account is a transit point. No bank account grows money like masuku. It is very childsh for a Judge to focus his judgement on simple issues such as FTJ clothes, education expenses. Zambia is such a great country and due to our limited exposure as Zambians and Africans in general,, we get over excited with flash headlines. Zambia has been surrounded by unstable neighbours and we have taken the stability in our country for granted not knowing that by FTJ associating with…. etl pays for the peace we continued to enjoy. One day we shall see the other side of this judgement. Long live FTJ

196. When are we going to stop politics of witch hunting in Zambia?LPM learnt from chiluba who was hunting Kaunda and the next Pres will hunt for LPM. I hope ba shilulu ba Sata goes to state House.May be HH will be a good one.

     I love participating on this blogs and i am glad we are able to speak our minds out.Thanks to FTJ.No is perfect not even LPM-SC.

197. SAGE (#151),
     What depth ( or research) are you talking about. And what makes you think i was responding to you. Give me a break!!

198. Good morning my dear friends & enemies on blog, it Monday,some pipo think this blog belongs to them only and want to shout up others for their selfish reasons. Why should SAGE (#151) tell us not to respond? if at all we wont to respond about something he has brought up. HOW CHIK? Pls let Born Rich, Ba Joze, Kuku kayata and others talk the way they want about this issue after role the money allegally to have been stolen is for us all. Everyone want to take out what is burning in their hearts for the good of our country. It is actual a healing processing we are going through, from the disease of theft and corruption. I just hope in 2011 we wont be subject to this kind of disease again by Muwelewele. For all I know, in this country, history always repeat its self.

199. Chiluba has to be locked for over 25 years because the people in the country are suffering and things have gotten worse for us Zambians. He should pay the money which he stole.

200. Oh! by the way, when he pays the money back it should be used to fix school and hospitals e.t.c.

201. Fredrick Chiluba this one is for you, You sound too much like the man next door (down south). How can you blame the British when you were in charge. You had all the power to change things for the better in Zambia but you failed dismally. Shame on you you need to have you head examined. I am glad you were not able to stay on in power.

202. Ba FLora mwafuma kwisa, bola panshi?Who tells you in a civil case yo should be put under chains?Its either you pay or your are delared bankrupt.FTJ today faces bankruptcy and what has happened is the civil case has preceded the criminal case which somehow has been duly handled by Smith( $488,000),So my sister get to the facts and take it cool.Speed kills

203. How chik!! you call us Kaponyas (#184) and Lusaka & copperbelt Kaponya based provinces? You are forgetting that LPM and HH were both voted by illiterate people in the illiterate based provinces who are never enlightened like us the so call kaponyas, who even have privilege of blowze through this blog and other medias and know the conduct of these two leaders.

204. 18th May 2007 is a very important day because that is when LPM & Govt will bring into motion the consequences of the London Judgement thereby effectively surrendering our independence back to Europe. LPM will no longer be President but Governor of a colonial outpost. I can guarantee LPM that those of us interested in freedom will get it back in the next elections.

     Ba kaponya have the right to self determination.

205. AM, the Combined votes of Mwanawasa and HH in Lusaka beats those of SATA. Copperbelt is not at all a literate province..It is full of dull miners and kaponyas and a few intellectuals who are pre-occuped with cheap rhetorics.

206. Ba Flora where are discussing the London Judgement here, and not whether FTJ had the means to improve things. since you have changed the subject. Lets talk about it. Yes FTJ probably had an opportunity to change things in Zambia. I personally cant blame him for not doing much because he is a grade 7. The man failed misarably probably he will go in books as the worst president Zambia will ever have. Personally i dont like some of the things LPM does. Compaired to FTJ on developmental issues, I think LPM(SC) has done a comendable job. The only problem i have with LPM is that he is in a reactive mode. He has no vision. OSme of you will argue that the NDP is the vision. The NDP can only be a vision if the government is putting measures in place to fufill the NDP. But when you look at the budget and the policies of GRZ everything is in contrast with the NDP.

207. Hi SAGE…Actually Chiluba over achieved looking at his educational and Kaponya background…But he forgot where he came from and wanted to be a demi-god.

208. For those that have been following the discusion in on the London rulling i copied this from Zamnet website “The law Association of Zambia (LAZ) has since urged Government to register the London court judgment on Dr Chiluba in the Zambian High Court for the ruling to be enforced.

     LAZ vice-president, Stephen Lungu, said the judgment became a legal document when it was passed in London, but had to be registered in the High Court of Zambia for the execution of the ruling”.
     I have been talking about how cumbersome the legal process will be and it has already started.

209. SAGE, my bro, what Lungu is talking about is the usual process in enacting judgements from foregin states. Every lawyer knows that, and that would be the next stage. The sentencing State(UK) may request another Contracting State (Zambia) to enforce the sanction.

210. Well explain Kayata(209). So UK is not taking over the running of Zambian affairs from hence forth as imagined by “truly Zambian'(204).

211. Well explain Kayata(209).UK is not taking over the running of Zambian affairs from hence forth as imagined by “truly Zambian'(204).

212. Hey #211, UK is not taking over the running of the Zambian affairs,but note that the Zambian Govt took the case to the UK courts, of which the UK courts through it’s Govt may request the Zambian Govt to enact the judgement. Such cases are common where the judgement was done in absentia of either the defendant or the plaintiff,or the defendant does not reside in the state that the judgement was passed.Truly Zambian #204 et al, have talked about the independence, overlooking facts on the ground. I believe the best way the govt should have done is to freeze the assets they believed were stolen. Once they were to be challenged in court, then should have the govt removed FTJ’s immunity and further on. The State secrets as believed have been exposed. In the beginning, the defendants were escapng to UK in the name of getting the evidence,now the Govt has brought the case where the defendants claim the evidence is.

213. Is Atan Shansongo one of the 19? If so why is Judge Smith not ordering for his deportation?

214. Hon.SAGE, If Shansonga is one of the 19.Is there any basis to deport him back to Zambia? Only if it was criminal,would he face deportation and that would have been after finishing his prison sentence.

215. Sylvester…how do you know my name is not zababa????.

216. It is Ali baba!!!

217. Ba Kuku na ba Sage nasambilila ilelo, criminal case is different from civil case. Natotela.

218. Zambia is a very disorderly country whose current leaders don’t know what they are doing. They are protesting the London court ruling in favour of Donegal for US$15.5 Million yet at the same time they have spent more than US$15 Million on legal expenses paying lawyers and security experts abroad to pursue FTJ. Does this make sense mathematically?

     Someone has his or her brain constipated and we need urgent action to stop this.

219. Kayata,on #212 you a have a number of good points on what you have said. But something ruins them, when you use believe. especially when you say “to freeze the assets they beleived were stolen”.It would be better if they are to freeze assets they know were stolen.As in knowledge through sensible perspection.Meaning according to evidence gathered.Not just as a matter of belief.

220. Trigo (#72), check your facts, Tanzania has had four presidents: Julius Nyerere, Ali Hassan Mwinyi, Benjamin Mukapa and Jakaya Kikwete (incumbent). Salim Ahmed Salim was never president but OAU SG.

     However your point’s noted…deal with the matter on homesoil, is that it?

     But ‘justice delayed is justice denied’. Zambians,Chiluba, GRZ; all need justice to be served/done. Waiting for over five years (as this case has taken) will not do.

     I’m therefore of the view that the war on corruption has to be fought and won within reasonable time any place where the chances of succeeding are greatest. London, where most of the alleged illegal activities in the material case were transited had a bigger comparative advantage than Chikwa…it’s got nothing to do with racism!

221. If the $46M, allegedly stolen by FJT, was shared today each Zambian will get $4. So is it worthwhile prosecuting this case and at what cost? Shouldn’t Zambians just forgive, forget and move on as has been suggested by someone somewhere?

     My view is that it’s not the amount but the principle that’s important. It needs to be set or redefined. Those who steal must be made to account regardless of their station or status in life. If this is not done what message are we sending to fraudsters in waiting? The presidency is the highest office in the land. It cannot be seen to be brought into disrepute. So it’s not about FJT, LPM, KK or whomever will be next president but instilling in everybody that corruption will not be tolerated and those who choose to engage in it must be prosecuted to the full extent of the law!

     Unfortunately or fortunately, FJT ‘volunteered’ to be the first one. Justice must be done or served for everybody including FJT himself!

222. Trigo,#219. Thanks, but why i used the word “believe” is because, a person is innocent until proven guillty before the courts of law.

223. He thought he was invisible! supprised non of the zambian lawers saw it? i say punish him. give the money to UTH coz some of it is still in foreign accounts look at the health service.most people starving no jobs!! zambians stand up for yourselves. power to the people.

224. Mr Kayata you left out the key word “Competent”. Person is innocent until proven guilty by the competent court of law.

225. Can some one name the all 19 chiluba ‘s co- accused in this Zamtroop saga.The guy was not alone. Some of the people who enjoyed with FTJ are in govt with LPM today and they are sleeping and walking scot free in cairo rd.I have in mind VJ,Katele,leslie Mbula,Machungwa, Mabenga,Kavindele,and many other too numeroius to name.

226. Thanks MK for the correction of my facts. And you got my point right.
     Its actually Ali Hassan Mwinyi, just that possibly that day i had been reading the biography of Salim ahamad Salim.
     Let us continue to share ideas to develop our country. Its starts at this Fora/blog the way we are sharing right now all of us.

227. Mr Chiluba with due respect i Hope the taxpayers monies is not included in your list of well-wishers who donated some money to you.
     Let the truth prevail.

     Psalm 15:1-3
     LORD, who shall abide in thy tabernacle? who shall dwell in thy holy hill.He that walketh uprightly, and worketh righteousness, and speaketh the truth in his heart.He that backbiteth not with his tongue, nor doeth evil to his neighbour, nor taketh up a reproach against his neighbour.

228. (227#)

     Amen.

229. Ulupiya lwesu must be returned full stop scripture or no scipture we want our National Money Back.Our fathers line up waiting for their hard earned pension yet someone has the guts to say donations???? where is teh fear of God in that????

230. Ka kaboki ka Chiluba send him to prison on Christmas day just like KK

231. Nti wabika shani money yobe mu account ya company?
     Can you believe someone saying some of the money from the Zamtrop were from friends.

     FJT ni kabesha!

232. This kalittle person just won’t budge will he .here he goes again playing on our niceness.
     somebody send this ka thief to prison with only better tv in his cell!man,he is so annoying..
     zico yamutendele..

233. There are a number of bloggers here that think Chiluba is smart and so appear to extol the thief-man. Also thieves think they are smarter than those that are honest. I seem to agree with the other side of the sentiments that label FJT’s dishonesty as it should rightly be labeled. Some say he is “Iron FJT” who has come out fighting. If I may ask, which thief would go down without resistance. They all claim to be innocent even when they are found guilty. As a matter of fact the man is a thief who cannot account for the millions and the same ill-gotten wealth lives to haunt him day and night. He is simply shameless.

234. how dare you sit there and accuse my uncle fred. how dare you? dont you have naything better to do bane? hehehehhe
     this man with his son castro thought their bodies were made out of gold. why is the government taking so long over this?
     i have been gone for so many years, married with children.
     i used to follow castro’s stories on the internet. whatever happened to him? does anyone know? do you all remember the timw when he raped a girl in the komboni, shot her and then paid her mother k1,000,000? does anyone remember that story?

235. what happened to castro made out of gold, untouchable?
     how to got away with raping a girl mukomboni, shot her and then paid her k1,000,000 to shut up. i used to follow that story when i lived in chicago. i have since moved to the bronx. anyone know what happened to him?

236. hello everyone i am new to this. yes what happened to Castro and the other kids fred, verosia, Tito. i heard tito died?
     where is vera chiluba today?

237. we need our money ka chiluba waunfwa

238. ..well the whole point here is not to get the money back..the reality is, we probably won’t get it back. We just have to make sure the man does not live to enjoy it, after all…money is not exciting, its the exciting things in life that cost money.. 🙂 I dont think he can do that if his in Kabulonga, now can he?

239. # 237 ULECHINDIKA INTUNGULUSHI SHACHALO EVEN THE BIBLE TELLS YOU THAT.BUSHE ABALENGELE UKUTI WISUKE NIBANI?CHILUBA MUST BE RESPECTED REGARDLESS OF THE CASE PENDING.THEREFORE IN YOUR DISCUSSION YOU SHOULD REMEMBER THAT.I RECALL CORRECTLY WE USE TO SUFFER WITH TRANSPORT AND FEW OWN HOUSES.GIVE THE DEVIL HE DUES, BUSHE WABA SHANI MWEBANTU?

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